E.on wants to double my monthly direct debit

matelodave

Sosumi wrote: »

By what process are you able to predict accurately whether next winter will be mild or severe?

I've got eight years worth of monthly consumption figures which gives me a pretty good idea of what my consumption is likely to be. Obviously it varies a bit depending on when I'm on holiday and whether it's a cold, average or prolonged winter but it's not usually more than £20-£30 out.

I can predict when I'm going to be in credit or debit on a month by month basis depending on when I start my 12 month contract usually within a couple of quid.

If I start a contract in April then I'll be in credit before winter and it balances out come the following April and if I start one in November then I'll have a healthy debit which gets eroded during the summer and balances by November.

One of the energy companies (I cant remember which) has a monthly consumption profile which is is fairly close to mine so it can't be all that difficult to come up with an algorithm which would save wild swings in direct debits based on customer readings and random review dates.

Former_E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc

RandomQ wrote: »

Malc

I have seen your posts before and you seem to be a very understanding representative.

However, offering anyone a smart meter at this time is totally wrong when the industry is supplying crappy SMET1 meters till at least mid October.

Also rather than say

"We don't charge to fit smart meters "

it would be more honest to say

"Energy suppliers are not allowed to charge you a fee for installing a Smart Meter but we will get you later with exorbitant standing charges."

As this person is likely to want to get out of EON at the earliest opportunity recommending a Smart Meter is really bad advice as it will become dumb when they leave due to SMET1 incompatibility issues.

You know, I would just not mention Smart Meters unless you are asked.

Focus on why your Direct Debits have doubled to such an obcene level.

No Customer should EVER have their Direct Debit doubled without proper engagement and checking.

Hello RandomQ and, I agree, customers should be kept in the loop when we're looking to change their payment arrangements. As with the OP, we write to let them know about proposed changes and put information on bills. This gives them the opportunity to talk to us to sort out issues like estimated bills.

We check payment arrangements quarterly but, if needed, only look to make changes at the mid-term and annual reviews. At the other times, we advise if we think a change is needed but leave it up to the customer to make any alterations.

The more meter readings we have, the more accurate our assessment of future energy use is likely to be. As you know, this isn't an exact science as circumstances change. To help, we've the online Direct Debit Manager I mentioned the other day. This lets customers amend their payments to better reflect different circumstances. Also, as matelodave says, we need customers to talk to us so things like estimated bills can be corrected and Monthly Direct Debits reviewed. This helps keep accounts on track for a zero balance by the annual review date and avoids the shock of a catch-up bill.

Having said this, we recognise there are situations where it isn't possible for customers to read their meters. The OP has a disability that makes it very difficult for them to read their meters. As I posted before, I suspect this has led to a series of estimated bills followed by a catch-up. To help prevent this happening again, there are things we can do to assist. This includes special visits each quarter and smart meters.

I totally appreciate your views on the current smart meter rollout. This doesn't, though, mean they can't be of use in situations like this where disabled customers struggle to read their meters. I would be failing in my duty of care not to make customers aware of their existence. It's then down to the individual person to decide if they want to go down this route. I advise customers only to consider smart meters as a possible future option in the same way as I talk about Warm Home Discount and the ECO scheme. It's about raising awareness. It might well be the OP is fully up to speed with all these things but I can't be sure from their posts.

One of the most frequently asked questions is, how much do I have to pay for you to fit smart meters? Again, I have a responsibility to make it clear there isn't an up-front fee. Also, our daily standing charges are the same whether the meter is smart or classic.

Whilst they haven't said, I agree, the OP may well want to change supplier. The implications of having smart meters following a switch will be explained at the time an appointment is made.

My intention is to try and provide as much information as possible so customers can make informed choices as to how they handle their energy accounts.

Hope this explains my approach to this type of query RandomQ. I know I sometimes ramble on and sorry about that.

Malc

System

@Malc must be on a course of 'patience' injections. The other thing that @Malc failed to mention is that one of the secondary benefits of smart meters is that they can take 30 minute usage readings which can be used to produce detailed usage profiles for every consumer which, over time, should refine the DD review process.

matelodave

Hengus wrote: »

@Malc must be on a course of 'patience' injections. The other thing that @Malc failed to mention is that one of the secondary benefits of smart meters is that they can take 30 minute usage readings which can be used to produce detailed usage profiles for every consumer which, over time, should refine the DD review process.

It shouldn't difficult to work out an averaged monthly consumption profile for most people based on the data that they've already got from millions of consumers so I doubt they'd be clever enough to do it based on 30 minute slots.

If they used the data that they'd already got then DD's wouldn't have to bounce up & down like yo-yo's and they'd be better at estimating customer's consumption.

That said, it does depend on customer's putting a bit of effort in as well by reading their own meters, checking bills and getting them corrected rather than throwing a wobbly when a ginormous bill comes in after the meter does actually get read.

zagfles

matelodave wrote: »

It shouldn't difficult to work out an averaged monthly consumption profile for most people based on the data that they've already got from millions of consumers so I doubt they'd be clever enough to do it based on 30 minute slots.

If they used the data that they'd already got then DD's wouldn't have to bounce up & down like yo-yo's and they'd be better at estimating customer's consumption.

Exactly. They don't need smart meters to tell them that customers use more energy in the winter. They should be able to produce good estimates as to the % of annual energy use that is used each month.

zagfles

Hengus wrote: »

@Malc must be on a course of 'patience' injections. The other thing that @Malc failed to mention is that one of the secondary benefits of smart meters is that they can take 30 minute usage readings which can be used to produce detailed usage profiles for every consumer which, over time, should refine the DD review process.

He also failed to answer my questions in post #26. Mind you, no energy supplier seems to want to answer those...

Former_E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc

orangesnaps wrote: »

This is what happened to us. The direct debit payment that they proposed for us was too low to build credit in time for our winter usage. I always take monthly meter readings for both gas and electricity and the first two bills we got (we were billed quarterly) I could see that it wasn't enough but it said on the bill that they didn't think it would need changing yet and will wait for the next bill to come through, come January (Nov-Jan) they wanted to up it from £55-£172 to cover the debit that we had in our account for our Nov.-Jan usage and because it was still so cold until April we couldn't recover and barely cleared our January bill (around £300+) in time for the next statement (April which came to around £330+).

Hello orangesnaps and following on from our conversation on another thread.

When customers first switch to us, we base their monthly payments on the information we have at the time. Later, we receive details of past usage at the property from their previous supplier. This lets us re-assess how much we think customers will need to pay to achieve as near as possible to a zero balance by the annual review.

Our payment arrangements look to spread energy costs evenly over a full 12 months. They're based on current prices and past usage. As mentioned yesterday in my reply to RandomQ, we check payment arrangements quarterly but, if needed, only look to make changes at the mid-term and annual reviews. At the other times, we advise if we think a change is needed but leave it up to the customer to make any alterations.

Totally understand, circumstances change and it's great you were giving us monthly meter readings. Thank you for doing this. It looks like your initial bills indicated we didn't need to recommend a change at that time but, as you say, a harsher winter than in recent years, caused a surge in usage. This will have led to our request to increase your payments. The aim is always to make sure accounts don't build up too much credit or debit and that they aim for a zero balance by the annual payment review.

I know you've left us but, as I advised the OP earlier in the thread, our online Direct Debit Manager helps customers keep on top of their accounts so they can react to changing circumstances.

Generally, the longer customers are with us and where, like you, they give us regular readings, the more accurate payment arrangements will ultimately be. As they're based on past usage, though, they're only estimates and will be affected by changes of circumstance.

Sorry you've left us orangesnaps and thank you again for sending us your readings so regularly.

Malc

Former_E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc

zagfles wrote: »

When do you do the annual review? Is it on the anniversary of joining, or is it at some other time of the year, for instance in the spring?

If the latter, then if a customer joins you in, say, the autumn, do you set the initial monthly direct debit to their estimated annual bill divided by 12? Or do account for the seasons (eg by using Annualised Load Profiles/Profile Coefficients) and work out likely usage over the period between joining and the annual review? Yes. But do you account for seasonal usage if the first review is less than a year since joining?

zagfles wrote: »

Indeed. The problem is they do usually faff about with the DD, when there's no need.I've done at least 4 switches where the following has happened:

1) I give them an accurate estimate of annual usage
2) They set a DD based on 1/12th of expected annual bill
3) Come Spring, they seem surprised I'm in debt and want to increase the DD to pay off the "debt", because they couldn't possibly have forseen that a debt would build up in the winter months. Sure - customers are to blame if they don't provide readings or accurate estimates of usage. But when they do, the energy companies still get it wrong because it seems beyond their comprehension that usage in winter is higher than summer.

zagfles wrote: »

It's an estimate! Which was accurate, as it turned out. But the point is - I didn't build up a debt because my estimate was out. I built it up because the energy company chose to set a DD based on average use and then seemed shocked that I'd built up a debt over winter!

Hello zagfles and sorry for the late reply. I'm not ignoring you but am gradually working my way through the questions on this thread in the order they were posted.

Annual payment reviews are carried out on the 12th month anniversary of when the arrangement was set up. This wasn't always the case. We did have a spring review policy but, following many requests from customers, we put in place the current system about 5 years ago.

We use the Average Daily Consumption (ADCs) figures for the past 12 months to work out what we believe payments should be and, yes, seasonal variations are taken into consideration.

The more meter readings we have, the more accurate our assessment of future energy use will be. As you say, this can only be an estimate as they're based on the past and circumstances change. As I mentioned above in reply to orangesnaps, we tend to find the longer accounts run and where we have regular readings, the less likely we are to recommend changes. Of course, a harsh winter or major lifestyle changes will drive a coach and horses through this theory. The online Direct Debit Manager I've talked about previously is designed to help customers cope with these changes and gives them more control over their arrangements.

Overall, we try to prevent too much credit or debit building up on accounts as we aim for a zero balance by the annual review. Where arrangements fall short of this, we'll automatically refund any credit over a fiver at the annual review or include a debit balance in the ongoing arrangement and spread this up to the next review.

Sorry again for the late reply zagfles. Let me know if you've any more questions as happy to help.

Malc

Former_E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc

matelodave wrote: »

I know what my consumption profile looks like and I can predict within a few ££ what my consumption will be every month of the year and I can work out when and by how much I'll be in credit or debit.

I give my own estimate to the energy company and providing they don't start faffing about with my DD then I'll balance out within a few ££ at the end of my contract.

However this seems to be beyond the capabilities of most energy companies even though it's not really rocket science to profile most customer's energy consumption and it all goes wrong when they try and recalculate DD's based on the previous quarter.

That said it does rely on customers having an idea of what they are using and making sure that their bills are correct. They happily accept estimated readings and then wonder why they get ginormous bills or increased DD's.

Most problems arise when customers don't get their bills corrected, don't send in meter readings and don't review their own direct debits. It's not just a one way thing to blame onto the energy company, customers have a responsibilty as well

matelodave wrote: »

I've got eight years worth of monthly consumption figures which gives me a pretty good idea of what my consumption is likely to be. Obviously it varies a bit depending on when I'm on holiday and whether it's a cold, average or prolonged winter but it's not usually more than £20-£30 out.

I can predict when I'm going to be in credit or debit on a month by month basis depending on when I start my 12 month contract usually within a couple of quid.

If I start a contract in April then I'll be in credit before winter and it balances out come the following April and if I start one in November then I'll have a healthy debit which gets eroded during the summer and balances by November.

One of the energy companies (I cant remember which) has a monthly consumption profile which is is fairly close to mine so it can't be all that difficult to come up with an algorithm which would save wild swings in direct debits based on customer readings and random review dates.

matelodave wrote: »

It shouldn't difficult to work out an averaged monthly consumption profile for most people based on the data that they've already got from millions of consumers so I doubt they'd be clever enough to do it based on 30 minute slots.

If they used the data that they'd already got then DD's wouldn't have to bounce up & down like yo-yo's and they'd be better at estimating customer's consumption.

That said, it does depend on customer's putting a bit of effort in as well by reading their own meters, checking bills and getting them corrected rather than throwing a wobbly when a ginormous bill comes in after the meter does actually get read.

Afternoon matelodave and thought you might be interested in the Profiles we use.

When working out Monthly Direct Debits, we use Profiles like the one you describe. They're based on the individual Average Daily Consumption (ADCs) figures for a property. These are spread over the previous 12 months with seasonal variations taken into consideration.

As I mentioned above, where we've supplied for any length of time and usage has been relatively consistent (based on meter readings), it's less likely we'll need to look at changing the monthly payments. There tends to be more likelihood of asking to change payments following events like a home move, supplier switch or where we haven't had readings for a time.

Customers moving into properties inherit the ADCs from the previous occupier. As people's lifestyles, appliances etc differ, it can take a time before the Profile matches the usage of the new resident. The more readings we receive, the quicker Profiles update. In the meantime, there can be changes requested as we look to re-adjust payments to better match current usage.

When we take over an account, we initially base payments on the information we're given at the point of sale. After a time, we receive details of past usage from industry third parties. This includes the Estimated Annual Consumption (EAC) for electricity and the Annual Quantity (AQ) for gas. If these figures are out of kilter with the information previously received, we'll re-assess payments based on the relevant EAC/AQ. Again, this can lead to requests to change payments.

One of the most common sources of a payment change is where we haven't had readings for a time. Once we do have up to date readings, they can result in a catch-up bill and a request to change payments.

Different circumstances is another potential source of a request to change payments. As I've spoken about above, the online Direct Debit Manager is there to help customers adjust their payments to better suit the new circumstances.

I wouldn't expect energy users, like yourself, who are on top of their accounts, provide regular readings and understand their usage to suffer too much disruption. As you say, it tends to happen where accounts have been estimated or issues haven't been reported. Overall, we're looking to prevent too much credit or debit building up as we aim for zero balances at the annual reviews.

Sorry if I'm telling you something you already know matelodave but hope it's of interest. Please ignore if not.

Malc

Former_E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc

Hengus wrote: »

@Malc must be on a course of 'patience' injections. The other thing that @Malc failed to mention is that one of the secondary benefits of smart meters is that they can take 30 minute usage readings which can be used to produce detailed usage profiles for every consumer which, over time, should refine the DD review process.

Spot on Hengus. This would improve the accuracy of the Profiles I've spoken about this afternoon to matelodave. In turn, it would feed through into our payment reviews to cut down on the amount of times we need to ask customers to change their payments. Not counting, that is, the significant events I mentioned to matelodave that sometimes impact payment arrangements.

Great point Hengus. I hadn't thought of this when replying to RandomQ. Have a good weekend.

Malc