LL/LA keeping money

smeef

Hi, I've posted before about the trouble we had with our LA/LL, but could do with some more advice.

To recap, we were served a S21 when we signed a 6 month AST. 2-3 months before the end of the AST we were offered an extension, which we accepted. 2 weeks before the end of the tenancy we were asked again about the extension and we agreed. The very next day we were told LL had changed their mind (wanted to sell) and we had to move out at the end of the AST.

We pleaded for extra time to find somewhere, and managed to move out in 3 weeks after being told yes we could stay until we found somewhere, but to move out as quickly as possible.

SO for rent went out of our account as we asked and were told to leave it in place until we moved. This means we paid around £300 in rent for time when we had already moved out.

LL is saying we can't have it back as we moved onto a periodic tenancy and they never agreed to us just paying for the time we were there. They are also saying we should have given a month's notice that we were moving out. And I quote "they were nice enough to give us extra time to move"!!!!!

I feel like we've been treated unfairly and should be allowed our money back because:

• we were asked to move as quickly as possible which we did
• if we had known they wanted a month's notice we wouldn't have moved as quickly (to avoid paying rent on 2 properties), and therefore we would have been in situ longer
• they never said anything about a periodic tenancy otherwise we would have known about the need for a month's notice

Either they wanted us to move quickly or they wanted a month's notice and the rent. They can't have it both ways.

Would we have a legal leg to stand on in the small claims court?

SquatNow

Is it just the £300 or are they keeping your deposit as well?

smeef

It took them a while but we got the deposit back minus £40 for not doing the gardening.

Guy_Montag

How much of this have you got in writing? even e-mail?

franklee

I thought we had covered this here

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?p=6454785#post6454785

They served you notice, you do not need to serve them notice.

The fact that you stayed past the expiry of their notice makes no difference, their notice stands unless you all agreed to it's withdrawal which obviously didn't happen.

The fact that they agreed to your staying on a bit longer makes the notice technically invalid should you wish to challenge it which you don't so I don't see that matters in this case.

They still maintained you had to leave and you left. You owe rent for the days you were in occupation.

If they are insisting you had to give notice as theirs was withdrawn then on what grounds were they still insisting you had to move out as quickly as possible? Either they wanted you to leave by their notice or they didn't, they can't have it both ways!

Get to the small claims court, yes you have legal legs, they don't!

smeef

I guess I still wasn't clear after the last thread. Given that it was said more than once in that thread that following the expiration of the original AST we would have automatically been on a periodic tenancy then it seems like actually we don't have a leg to stand on and we should have given a month's notice. That doesn't feel right to me, but then it wouldn't.

The key question for me now is do the tenants have to be made aware that the tenancy has gone periodic, or should they automatically know. I.E. is ignorance a good defence?

I just don't want to go through the hassle of turning up to small claims court simply to be told that it's obvious we were on a periodic tenancy and therefore we should have given notice.

smeef

Guy_Montag wrote: »

How much of this have you got in writing? even e-mail?

I repeatedly asked the LA to confirm on what terms and conditions we were staying past the end of the AST so that we knew where we stood, and stressed that we wanted something in writing.

The only thing we got was an e-mail confirming that we could stay "until we found another property or the house was sold". No mention of a periodic tenancy, no mention of a month's notice.

Guy_Montag

smeef wrote: »

I repeatedly asked the LA to confirm on what terms and conditions we were staying past the end of the AST so that we knew where we stood, and stressed that we wanted something in writing.

The only thing we got was an e-mail confirming that we could stay "until we found another property or the house was sold". No mention of a periodic tenancy, no mention of a month's notice.

That sounds like it may be enough though. At least use that as leverage to threaten court action.

Good luck.

Debt_Free_Chick

smeef wrote: »

I guess I still wasn't clear after the last thread. Given that it was said more than once in that thread that following the expiration of the original AST we would have automatically been on a periodic tenancy then it seems like actually we don't have a leg to stand on and we should have given a month's notice. That doesn't feel right to me, but then it wouldn't.

You only go onto an SPT (Statutory Periodic Tenancy) if both the LL and the tenant do nothing i.e. do not enter a new agreement. In your case, the LL did something - he issued you with a notice to quit. This ended the AST at the end of the term. An SPT is like a statutory extension to an AST that's come to the end of it's term. Yours did not "come to the end of it's term" as such - it was terminated by the LL. Think of it as "there was no AST for the SPT to tag on to".

The key question for me now is do the tenants have to be made aware that the tenancy has gone periodic, or should they automatically know. I.E. is ignorance a good defence?

No - it's a statutory right that is automatically granted. Strangely, it's intended to give tenants protection - so that if the LL has taken no action, you at least get the benefit of the LL having to give you two months notice to quit.

I just don't want to go through the hassle of turning up to small claims court simply to be told that it's obvious we were on a periodic tenancy and therefore we should have given notice.

Would it be worth half an hours advice with a property/letting lawyer?

Or why not post on Landlord Zone where there are number of LLs who really know their stuff.

(No offence to any LL posting here, it's just there are more of 'em over there)

smeef

Thanks for the advice everyone. It just seems so messy. We will be getting legal advice as we are going to the small claims court.

Generali

I (well Mrs Generali actually) got loads of good advice from the CAB.

Oh and for those that are interested, we turned up for the court case to get our deposit back and it's been adjourned. The LL sent his mother to plead the case for him. As she's neither a solicitor nor a barrister, she couldn't. I thought it was quite sweet that a grown man got Mummy to sort things out for him but the judge didn't see it that way.

The judge was very interested in both parties settling. We were happy to but La Putain refused to make a sensible offer so we're waiting for a new date. Sometime around Christmas is my guess.