Help required - OH Court date in under 3 weeks and been ill!

Stevey

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Either at the hearing, when you can tear into their messy template drivel, or in a SA.

Good!

I hope he tears into their rep from the outset, you might find your wife doesn't have to say a word.

Folks,

Thanks again for all your help.

We are in court tomorrow - think it's probably safe to say that now. I'll update you all where I can.

In terms of the argument from the Claimant, via their hounds Gladstones, they have refuted our defence, their bundle is 27 pages, compared to our nearly 100. A lot of it is signage, their defence statement/witness statement is 4 pages total :spam:

Brief points:

1) They actually agree they haven't identified the driver, but invite the Court on the "balance of probability" to assume the keeper is the driver.

2) They have provided a "proof" of contractual assignment, from the landowner. Problems with this are multiple - firstly, they do not reference the Landowner in the OS Title Deeds I provided as evidence, but another 3rd party (O&C Car Parks). Secondly, there are 2 landowners, and one of those is redacted in the document.

3) As my argument states, the land in the official title deeds is a different address and postcode to the land referred to in the contractual assignment.

4) They quote Beavis as a rebuttal that the charges are not excessive. Simple this one, as I just need to quote Cargius in return to demonstrate why Beavis is a unique situation, in terms of needing to encourage a turnover of parking spaces etc. ie. Can't apply Beavis here.

5) They claim they have followed all protocols etc, but despite our request for sequential service of witness evidence, literally stating they have a habit of providing details at the last minute, they sent us their bundle on the last possible day (14 days before court date).

I'll update you all tomorrow - we will hopefully be fine, but I may post if we have any obvious problems at the Court.

Thanks again.

Stevey

We lost - welcome to the 1% club

Coupon-mad

Oh stevey, so sorry to hear that! Tell us what happened, when you feel ready.

Which court, which Judge.

Stevey

Judge Hickinbottom, Bradford.

Ok - so you'll appreciate I'm not a happy camper at the moment - we're out over £200 including costs, and spent lots of time on prep - win some and lose some they say!

A few comments based on our experience:

1) Above all, I would say you need a compelling reason for challenging the parking charge/notice. If you are at fault, I would say pay up. I am clear about that now. I know no one is advising otherwise on here, you are the good guys!

Our compelling reason was they didn't identify the Driver, and the parking company had non-compliant NTK's. In reality we knew my wife was the driver, and the judge asked the question - all fell down from there - we were not willing to purjure ourselves. If you are, then good luck to you!

Once my wife identified as the driver, the rest was relatively immaterial:

Signage - not perfect, but on balance judged enough to form a contract. Key was that the purchase of a ticket was really the act that pointed to contract, in addition to "imperfect" signage next to the machine. I think if we hadn't purchased a ticket it would have been possible to win! Isn't that ridiculous!

Any arguments about rights on land - again, the parking company were far from perfect and the judge made lots of comments like that, but still enough on balance of probability to be ok.

Cargius - Judge was uninterested - It's a District Judge decision, and relatively immaterial.

Outcome - Claimant succesful, but at reduced amount of £100 on the signage, plus all costs which are another £100.

2) I thought being the lay representative meant I would handle the whole thing, but my wife was subjected to questioning by the judge and the Claimant's representative for a good 10 minutes, was nearly in tears at a number of points. To be clear, the Defendant still has to defend themselves. I can make arguments after that but was completely unclear about that. If I had know that, I'm not sure I would have proceeded with this.

Judge Higginbottom (a lady) seemed to try and be fair and hear all arguments, I would say she seemed more able to handle the Claimant's smaller bundle, than our larger bundle, so I have further concerns about a scattergun approach to these cases, in the hope some mud sticks.

So what is my final caveat. I think the 99% success rate applies to having a real compelling reason that the ticket shouldn't be paid (ie it really wasn't you, or there is a clear legal precedent), or in all honesty, you have decided you will lie to get off. There is a lot of excellent advice on here, and I am still extremely grateful to all who provided advice. Editing various bits of this because still feeling a bit raw.

Question - where do we see the summary - I'm not clear on the exact amount we need to pay, there was some pathetic comments from the Claimant's rep, upping the interest by a couple of quid, so we're not clear on the full amount to pay - around £200.

Stevey

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Oh stevey, so sorry to hear that! Tell us what happened, when you feel ready.

Which court, which Judge.

Thank you so much for all your help, it is very appreciated.

District Judge Hickinbottom, Bradford.

Stevey

Think I've finished editing now!

Coupon-mad

It is ridiculous that, with all the same facts but if:

- you or I had been the driver instead

or

- no PDT had been purchased at all, and no contract made/agreed

You would have won.

If you are up to doing something positive, in the coming weeks, send an email to Sir Greg Knight and tell him how angry and upset you both are with what a parking firm put you through, and how ludicrous it is that a person who made no payment at the machine would have been in a better legal position than a person who did.

What was your username on pepipoo, I wanted to see the way this started on the forums?

Stevey

Ok - folks, calming down a bit.

Couple of questions:

1) It wasn't clear what happens next - will we receive an order for payment, and is that via post?

2) If we pay that within a certain timeframe it means no CCJ will show against us?

Thanks.

Stevey

Coupon-mad wrote: »

It is ridiculous that, with all the same facts but if:

- you or I had been the driver instead

or

- no PDT had been purchased at all, and no contract made/agreed

You would have won.

If you are up to doing something positive, in the coming weeks, send an email to Sir Greg Knight and tell him how angry and upset you both are with what a parking firm put you through, and how ludicrous it is that a person who made no payment at the machine would have been in a better legal position than a person who did.

What was your username on pepipoo, I wanted to see the way this started on the forums?

Agree - I think Sir Greg's bill is a key to reducing this stupidity.

Pepipoo username was Steveyell, Topic i think was PCN Lost the Letter.

Coupon-mad

Here's where you started then:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=115443

I advised you as SchoolRunMum and the draft defence was pared right down by Southpaw, so it wasn't a scattergun long forum defence. You had a good start and good preparation when you appeared here too.

What was the contravention, expired Pay & Display ticket?

You should update the pepipoo thread if you can still log in, give them a link to this thread so they can see the unfortunate outcome.