Can a shopkeeper refuse to give change?

waamo

Deastons wrote: »

So in my case, when I went to pay in the car park and I saw the small label on the machine saying "No change given. £3.50 minimum card payment." I had no choice to smile and walk away - I'd already used the service.

To me, that seems unfair. I should surely be made aware of such payment conditions before I choose to park and enter into the contract.

The terms and conditions of a contract should be clear before you enter into it. In the car park case you should be given opportunity to read the signs before you use the car park (a grace period of 10 minutes is supposed to be given in order to do so).

In the shopkeeper example you are given opportunity to decline purchasing the chocolate.

peachyprice

Deastons wrote: »

So in my case, when I went to pay in the car park and I saw the small label on the machine saying "No change given. £3.50 minimum card payment." I had no choice to smile and walk away - I'd already used the service.

To me, that seems unfair. I should surely be made aware of such payment conditions before I choose to park and enter into the contract.

Yes, it does seem very unfair, especially if you have no way of knowing before you enter and have no way of exiting without paying when you are made aware.

Although I have to say, I've only ever come across the 'minimum payment' thing on street meters where you can change your mind if you don't want to pay for more than you need. We have meters here where if you pay by phone/app you get 30 mins free, if you pay cash it's £1.20 minimum for 1 hr. Very unfair and a killer for the parade of shops.

unholyangel

waamo wrote: »

Now that is a well reasoned good argument.

Surely though a consumer is able to enter into a contract where the terms and conditions are made clear? For example many bus companies don't give change. You put your money into a machine and the driver issues a ticket.

Are you saying shops are different or that it's a different principle?

I'm saying OP asked the question of:

If, displayed very clearly by the till, was a sign saying "We do not give change" could a shop simply take your money and refuse change?

And the answer to that is no.

But yes, the law is slightly different with automated machines. They present an offer rather than invitation to treat. As with any claim, its always judged on its own merits.

Deastons wrote: »

This just reads as "I never have this problem so I don't care about your question."

Personally I thought it read as "whenever I've had this problem, I've went looking for the attendant - either off my own back or because there were signs telling me to".

Deastons

waamo wrote: »

The terms and conditions of a contract should be clear before you enter into it. In the car park case you should be given opportunity to read the signs before you use the car park (a grace period of 10 minutes is supposed to be given in order to do so).

As there was no mention of it on the tariff board, I would say this is unfair.

I can't imagine I'm expected to wonder around the entire car park reading every possible sign and Dymo label before I decide to park, so I think I should raise this with my local council. The signage should be clearer (or the machine should offer change).

zagfles

unholyangel wrote: »

Next and debenhams used to flout DSRs.....didn't mean what they were doing was legal though and nor does it show any support in law of it.

As for the vending question...I've never had any problems with vending machines or parking machines not giving change. Theres usually an attendant of sorts who has access to the machine or who can do it manually.

Have you ever used a payphone? Or a parking meter? Try finding an "attendant" for those!

Some parking machines give change, usually those where you pay on exit, but many old fashioned council "pay and display" parking machines don't.

See http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-41387429

The "Taxpayer's Alliance" seem quite upset about "no change" parking machines, but don't seem to be considering legal action, or suggesting people contact the council to demand their change. Why not I wonder?

But to pose one of your own sort of questions to you.....vending machines (and other machines) sometimes wont give you the item you paid for, does that mean you think its legal for a trader to take your money and not give you anything in return?

Interesting strawman. If a vending machine doesn't give you what you paid for, ie it malfunctions, then you're entitled to your money back. I've got my money back when that's happened a few times.

Now, why don't you try putting a £1 in a payphone and making a 1 min call costing 60p, then demand your 40p change from BT and see how far you get.

zagfles

peachyprice wrote: »

I think that is the whole point of OP starting this thread

Well, quite!

zagfles

peachyprice wrote: »

There's a huge difference between not accepting a £10 note and accepting a £10 and not giving the change back!

Scenario 1: You go in to a shop, buy something for £1, you only have a £10 note, they don't have change, you leave your item behind.

Scenario 2: You go in to a shop, buy something for £1, you only have a £10 note, they take your £10 note, close the till and tell you you can't have your £9 change.

No. I was thinking of scenario 3.
Scenario 3: You go into a shop, want to buy something for £9. You only have a £10 note. The shopkeeper tells you "sorry I don't have any change". But rather than leave the item, you really want the item. So you say to the shopkeeper "I'll have it anyway" and give him the £10.

As long as the customer is aware they won't get change, and has a choice whether to proceed with the transaction on that basis, I can't believe there's a problem.

waamo

zagfles wrote: »

No. I was thinking of scenario 3.
Scenario 3: You go into a shop, want to buy something for £9. You only have a £10 note. The shopkeeper tells you "sorry I don't have any change". But rather than leave the item, you really want the item. So you say to the shopkeeper "I'll have it anyway" and give him the £10.

As long as the customer is aware they won't get change, and has a choice whether to proceed with the transaction on that basis, I can't believe there's a problem.

I posed that scenario in post 47 above but nobody seemed to answer it.

NeilCr

zagfles wrote: »

Have you ever used a payphone? Or a parking meter? Try finding an "attendant" for those!

Some parking machines give change, usually those where you pay on exit, but many old fashioned council "pay and display" parking machines don't.

See http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-41387429

In #30 unholyangel indicates that they've usually been able to find an attendant if needed. They appear to live in a part of the country where there are parking machines that give change and/or attendants to assist. I am assuming that they are including parking attendants in that post.

I've got to say that's not my experience. The only parking "attendant" I've seen around here is in the Waitrose car park and she's there to catch people who exceed the 2 hour max stay. Our Waitrose is central to the town and the sea and the car park is free so I can see why they employ her.

From what I read (see my earlier post) many councils have the no change machines. One car park manager said it was the norm. That's certainly the case here and some private car parks are the same. I'd agree with you that nothing gets done about them. I used one regularly and tried to make sure I had the exact money. Otherwise, you pay over the odds. They are quite clevely priced so that you just put in an extra 20p or so For that amount most people can't be bothered with the pay by phone option.

zagfles

NeilCr wrote: »

In #30 unholyangel indicates that they've usually been able to find an attendant if needed. They appear to live in a part of the country where there are parking machines that give change and/or attendants to assist. I am assuming that they are including parking attendants in that post.

I've got to say that's not my experience. The only parking "attendant" I've seen around here is in the Waitrose car park and she's there to catch people who exceed the 2 hour max stay. Our Waitrose is central to the town and the sea and the car park is free so I can see why they employ her.

From what I read (see my earlier post) many councils have the no change machines. One car park manager said it was the norm. That's certainly the case here and some private car parks are the same. I'd agree with you that nothing gets done about them. I used one regularly and tried to make sure I had the exact money. Otherwise, you pay over the odds. They are quite clevely priced so that you just put in an extra 20p or so For that amount most people can't be bothered with the pay by phone option.

I've probably used hundreds of "no change" parking machines. Not to mention payphones, in the old days.