Wind, heating, LPG, oh god!

bazzapurple

Ta for that. In reading the ad, it seemed they were saying that it simply pumps cold air or water, which somehow makes it warmer, which I believe is witchcraft, but now I see, the condensing thing aka fridge. This might be an option, but it seems best suited to underfloor heating, which isn't doable here.
As for the double glazing, the windows need replacing as they are rotten, let the heat out and water and noise in. As they need replacing anyway, might as well go for double glazing.
Cheers all,
Bazza

bazzapurple

Well, Im back again.
Since the last post I've dry-lined the living room which has made a huge improvement in there.
I've had a quote for wind turbines (far too much), solar is not really going to work in the winter, ground pump may be an option, but it seems, as we have some access to waste wood, a woodchip boiler might be the best bet.
Anyone got one???
Bazza

Ben84

Nobody has mentioned radiator foil yet. It's not one of the most popular energy saving improvements, which is a pity as it does save significant amounts of fuel and is very cheap and easy to install yourself.

If your radiators are against outside walls, some of the heat your radiators emit is lost in to the walls, and this loss is higher in houses with solid walls and/or no insulation, so you would hopefully make savings in the higher range.

Cardew

Ben84 wrote: »

Nobody has mentioned radiator foil yet. It's not one of the most popular energy saving improvements, which is a pity as it does save significant amounts of fuel and is very cheap and easy to install yourself.

If your radiators are against outside walls, some of the heat your radiators emit is lost in to the walls, and this loss is higher in houses with solid walls and/or no insulation, so you would hopefully make savings in the higher range.

There has been a long thread on this in the Utilities section.

Much as it seems to be a good idea, there is absolutely no proof at all that is saves any money at all, let alone "significant amounts of fuel".

One poster fitted them and conducted a trial(admittedly not under controlled conditions) hoping it would justify fitting them, and concluded that it made no saving at all.

It is also significant that the Energy Saving Trust doesn't recommend them amongst the many measures for fuel saving.

It appears to be one of those measures that seems like it should work, but doesn't!!

If you have any objective evidence(trials etc) that show any savings, it would be interesting.

Ben84

Interesting questions Cardew,

Unfortunately, it's pretty much impossible to trial them at home in a scientific way, so I can't say I have personally tested them to any exact standards. Way too many factors, from the weather to how much you use the heating. You need a controlled environment, and a house exposed to the weather with people living in it is anything but controlled.

However, my experience with the foil has been good. It is very obvious when you put your hand against the foil for a short while that the foil feels like it is heating up, but it is of course reflecting your heat. It becomes quite warm, so I have no doubts that it does reflect heat well.

After installing it we noticed some differences we didn't expect. Rooms that were usually cold felt warmer and the heating seems to heat the house faster now. Someone who didn't know about the foil being installed commented on this, and the difference in our house was very noticable, so I don't think it was something we felt because we were looking to see a difference.

The packet claimed it could save around 5% of your heating fuel, which I don't consider an excessive claim. It's not huge, but if true it adds up over time and should save a lot more than the foil cost.

Regarding the energy saving trust, I'm not entirely happy with some of the products they do recommend. Their endorsement of 42" widescreen TVs should raise eyebrows, while the eco kettle has no energy saving powers beyond boiling the correct amount of water - something that you can easily do with any kettle.

I'm going to have a look for some studies on the foil, and perhaps email the energy saving trust to ask them why they don't mention it. A search on their site revealed some mentions, but no direct suggestions to use it.

Cardew

Ben84,

Nice to see a reasoned approach rather than the 'I have bought xxx and it has halved my fuel bills' post we so often get.

There are loads of websites like this one:

http://www.west-norfolk.gov.uk/default.aspx?page=22419

These discuss heat loss through walls and none as far as I can see make any recommendations that foil saves anything at all.

If just the relatively tiny areas behind radiators on an outside wall could save "around 5% of your heating fuel" You could line the whole area of your house and save???

I also personally doubt that 'reflecting heat' means anything. The wall behind the foil will absorb heat from the air and also by conduction(heat soak) from the parts of the wall that are not behind the foil.

For example, immerse half the area of a brick or any solid object in hot water and the part out of the water will soon reach the same temperature as the part immersed.

So my gut feeling, is they will save virtually nothing, and whilst I agree with you about the EST endorsing the kettle etc, there is nothing I have seen(from an independant source) that claims they will save anything.

But it is only a gut feeling! Be interested to see what you find out.

matt_outandabout

Hello

Firstly, can I declare I work for a company supplying eco-building systems and products, and work advising on such issues, and selling the gear. There is a link to my site below - if its inappropriate, remove it please mods.

As you are discovering there is a lot of 'magic bullets' and confuzzling information being given out, especially on the web.

But, the basics:
Reduce, Reuse, Recycle applies to houses.

I would suggest that you HAVE to look at REDUCING energy - and that means insulating those solid walls and draft proofing.

Draft proofing is step no. 1 - its cheaper, simpler and normally a good DIY job. Older houses have an air change rate on average of 15-20 air changes an hour(ACH). New houses are built to (supposedly) 10ACH, and good houses are 5 or better...So just by draft proofing doors, windows, pipes through walls, gaps by skirting boards, laying carpets over those drafty boards etc, you can have a big impact.

Insulating solid walls is possible, best externally and then reclad or rendered, bit possinble internally, and very effective BUT, bear in mind a few things:
1. There is no substitute for big fluffy insulation - the foils/bubbles/wraps/mini-polystyrene wall papers usually, do not have the performance they promise (I have tried them/ have them in this house...) - using 'big' insulation that means you will be loosing some room space. My back room is insulated with Pavatex woodfibre, the office i am in now has Rockwool in a timber stud, the bedroom next door has Celotex foam. All have thier benefits / downsides - I was testing them all out 'for real'.
2. Watch out for interstitial condensation - if you insulate internally, you can reduce the heat flow through a wall, leading to possible damp issues. This is one of the main reasons to insulate externally if possible - I couldn't as I am in a conservation area.
3. Most builders, energy advisors etc are pretty poor at realising you CAN insulate old solid walls, and it works very well...be prepared to research and persuade....

Are your floors insulated? I found in our house (with cellar/suspended floor), that insulating here cut down drafts further, and really made a difference to how the house felt - we had same temp in rooms, but now had warm feet! so the thermostat got turned down...

How well insulated is the roof? You say 'its a good as possible'...but expereince says that is often not as much as is possible or desirable...you should have at least 30cm of fluffy insulation - over every last area - in a roof or wall, heat loss is like water leaking - one area that is a gap, crack or uninsulated bit = massive heat loss.

I have a large 4-bed terrace, and having put in lots of draft proofing and insulation, my gas bill is exactly half that of my nieghbours / mates on the street. I have no fancy eco technology (bar a new boiler..)

Some ideas for you:
Look at the AECB site: http://www.aecb.net/

How to what I talk about above, from the EST
http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/uploads/documents/housingbuildings/CE138%20-%20energy%20efficient%20historic%20homes%20-%20case%20studies.pdf
http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/uploads/documents/housingbuildings/CE83.GPG155%20-%20Energy%20efficient%20refurbishment%20of%20existing%20dwellings_4_01_08.pdf

How we do it at work...
http://www.natural-building.co.uk/
http://www.natural-building.co.uk/PDF/Case%20Studies/Oakley.pdf
http://www.natural-building.co.uk/PDF/Case%20Studies/Birkenhead_Mews.pdf

Someone else does this well:
https://www.greensteps.co.uk/nottinghill/
www.parityprojects.com
(these guys run a building companies doing this stuff...)

Once you have done this, you can then look to some 'eco bling' like wind, solar and GSHP....