Wind, heating, LPG, oh god!

bazzapurple

Hi All,
Here is my situation.
Last year bought an ex-pub. It's on it's own at the end of a village and has 3 acres around it.
It is 250 years old and has 3 reception rooms, 5 bedrooms, and two bathrooms.
No cavity in the walls to insulate.
Roof is insulated as well as it can be.
Now, we had a quote of £13,000 for a wind turbine,(£19k less the grant) which would match roughly our total electricity use over a year. That was grid connected.
After doing some sums, it didn't add up with what the salesman said about repayment of investment. He quoted about 5 years and we made it about 13 years, so we discounted the idea.
We don't have mains gas, but have LPG, which powers the central heating (19 radiators!). Last year we spent £2000 on LPG!
We have a wood burning stove with back boiler connected into the heating, which will take some of the load, but not a lot. (I tried getting the fire roaring for a couple of hours then turned on the heating pumps, after an hour the rads were just noticably warmer than ambient).
So, my idea is to replace the boiler with an electric one, and go for the turbine. (The existing boiler is not that new anyway so probably not so efficient).
If I can save the £2k on heating alone, it would be repaying itself in about 7 years or so, which is a pretty attractive return.
Has anyone any experience of electric central heating?
Anyone fitted a large wind turbine?
Any ideas?
I really don't like burning so much gas, and hate paying for it even more.
I hear electric heating is less efficient than gas, but if I were getting the electricity from a turbine, then that's not an issue. And I don't want to replace all those radiators with storage heaters.
Any thought very welcome.
Cheers
Bazza

pboae

Have you looked at ground source heating pumps? I don't know a great deal about them, except that they are expensive to run compared to natural gas, but they seem more reasonable when compared to LPG or just electric.

Cardew

The problem with GS heat pumps is they are better suited to underfloor heating as they apparently don't get the water hot enough for radiators; and a system to run 19 radiators in a house with poor insulation would cost a lot of money.

A turbine will not cope with heating a house by electricity at any wind speed and much of the time it will produce nothing to very little.

On the other hand I would consider a modern Economy 7 system. Much cheaper to install and run. Obviously has drawbacks.

You might also consider dry lining the rooms you spend the most time in, to provide better insulation.

bazzapurple

Hi Chaps, and thanks to both of you for your replies.
I had not considered ground source pumps, as I heard they were not up to the job really, and I'm not inclined to rip up all the floors for underfloor heating.
Cardew, you say no turbine is up to the job of heating a house, is this really true?
If so, how could it run economy 7? Or do you mean get storage heaters and no turbine?
I do not want to throw money away or keep on using fossil fuels if I can avoid it.
Obviously wind does not blow all the time, so you get grid connected and use the grid like a battery. Hopefully I would sell more to the grid in summer and buy some back in winter.
Does anyone on here have wind power?
Cheers
Bazza

Cardew

bazzapurple wrote: »

Cardew, you say no turbine is up to the job of heating a house, is this really true?
If so, how could it run economy 7? Or do you mean get storage heaters and no turbine?

Bazza

No a turbine wouldn't begin to look at heating a house and I meant no turbine and Economy 7.

To put things in perspective.

If you were lucky enough to have gas CH (or indeed your current LPG CH) you will be looking at a boiler capable of producing 40kW to cope with a large poorly insulated house with 19 radiators.

So under extreme conditions with non storage electrical heating you might need 35kW at a peak - obviously the average consumption would be much less than this.

Now a physically huge wind turbine of say, 5kW max output, would typically have a diameter of 20 feet, be mounted on a 40ft mast. Even so much of the time it would be producing 1kW or less, it would very rarely produce 5kW.

The economics of turbine generators is a totally different subject - but I don't think anyone claims they make economic sense. For instance your £13,000 generator would need to produce electricity/ROCs worth £780 a year just to cover the interest of borrowing the money at 6%. Then start to pay back and the cost of maintenance etc etc. I doubt if your generator will produce electricity worth more than a couple of hundred pounds a year.

peat

If you can find a supplier in your area a modern woodchip or wood pellet boiler system might be an option. Grants towards capital expenditure may be available.

bazzapurple

That's an interesting answer Cardew.
I have looked at a company called Proven, who are about to launch a new turbine, of 15kW. It would be a little larger than the size you mention, and no doubt more costly than the one I was quoted for. However, something this powerful must surely be able to provide more than enough???
The last few days here have averaged 4m/s and that has felt unusually calm, thats at ground level too.
I realise that to get the 35kW you mention, I would need 35 kW of power, or more. But, over the course of a year, wouldn't it be likely to average out? I mean the total amount generated being equal or close to the total amount used, using the grid like a battery.

Peat, do you have a pellet burner? If so, can you explain how the set up works, and what it costs??

Cheers,
Bazza

Cardew

bazzapurple wrote: »

That's an interesting answer Cardew.
I have looked at a company called Proven, who are about to launch a new turbine, of 15kW. It would be a little larger than the size you mention, and no doubt more costly than the one I was quoted for. However, something this powerful must surely be able to provide more than enough???
The last few days here have averaged 4m/s and that has felt unusually calm, thats at ground level too.
I realise that to get the 35kW you mention, I would need 35 kW of power, or more. But, over the course of a year, wouldn't it be likely to average out? I mean the total amount generated being equal or close to the total amount used, using the grid like a battery.

Peat, do you have a pellet burner? If so, can you explain how the set up works, and what it costs??

Cheers,
Bazza

Bazza,

Really the 2 issues - your heating requirements and a turbine are 2 completely separate issues.

You need a supply of electricity/gas/lpg/solid fuel to be able to produce sufficient energy to heat your house and clearly a turbine will not be able to do that.

Now the issue of whether a turbine is a paying proposition in that it will supply electricity to your house and earn you income for exporting electricity is no more relevant to your circumstances, than mine or the rest of the UK population.

It is a simply question of asking "is wind generation an economic proposition?"

The answer IMO is clearly No. In fact I have never seen even the most ardent enthusiast of wind generation, claim otherwise.

However perhaps you should start a new thread on the Proven 15kW turbine.
Leaving aside any economic issues it is pertinent to point out that some councils were reluctant to grant planning permission for the disaster called Windsave which is tiny.

The chances for the vast majority of UK getting planning permission for a turbine 30feet in diameter(??), stuck high up on a tower, chopping up birds, wailing, and interfering with TV reception are not high. NIMBY!!

bazzapurple

Ok then, you've made your point very clearly. Can I ask, in your opinion Cardew, what would be a good solution?

Just one thing though, for me, the two subjects are linked, that is why I asked that question.

Cheers
Bazza

Cardew

In essence you are looking for ways to reduce your heating bill which is currently LPG.

I assume the village has no gas? I know your house doesn't.

There are 2 factors. Fuel costs, and the cost in borrowing the money(or loss of interest) to install a new heating system.

The first thing is to ensure that you have the best insulation you can get in a non cavity walled house - that might mean dry-lining the most frequently used rooms - and obviously masses of insulation in the attic I appeciate you said that is done.

Then controls, obviously TRV's on radiators etc.

You would need a qualified heating engineer to carry out a survey of losses etc.

However with a badly insulated house that big you are not going to save huge amounts and it may well be that it won't be cost effective to change from LPG.
Obviously running costs will be cheaper with Oil CH; but will the savings pay for the cost of instalation of an oil boiler and tank?

A modern electrical storage heating system running on E7 or E10 will have lower running costs than LPG and are much cheaper to install.

However all storage heating systems have drawbacks and are not popular with many people.

Sorry can't be more specific!

peat

Info on woodchip/wood-pellet systems here
http://www.biomassenergycentre.org.uk/portal/page?_pageid=73,1&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL