LBC from SCS solicitors - help

nosferatu1001

Being prepared here can't hurt you. Up to you what you do

They're not bound by your offer, of course, or your timescales. This is all a game, and it's their decision to lay a claim or not.

Keeboard

I sent the email to info@scs-law.co.uk. This is found in the letterhead along with the telephone number and address. Hopefully it reaches the relevant team.

Would it be a good idea to send a paper copy along

Umkomaas

Would it be a good idea to send a paper copy along

As a safety backup, no harm in doing so. First class stamp with free Certificate of Posting from your PO counter (not Signed For/Recorded Delivery).

Keeboard

Hello Forum,

An update from my last post. I have received a response from SCS; they are basically arguing against the points that i made on the 'drop hands' letter.

They argue that there was sufficient signage displayed throughout the site so drivers are aware of the terms and conditions. They quoted me on my point of the pictures being blurry and you cannot read anything from the pictures. SCS provided a digital print out of the "alleged" signage that was at the site they are charging me at.

Is it necessary to have pictures of the signage as evidence? If so, is it ok to use a more clearer digital printout as additional evidence to the blurry pictures of signage at site, even though its not clear from the blurry picture that the digital printout are the same one?

They go on to say that the grace period of 10 minutes would have observed before a parking charge notice and photographs taken. The BPA Practice Code 2018 paragraph 13.2 states

"If the parking location is one where parking is normally permitted, you must allow the driver a reasonable grace period in addition to the parking event before enforcement action is taken. In such instances the grace period must be a minimum of 10 minutes."

So we have to just assume that they waited 10 minutes before taking action?

Thanks

Redx

if your dad wishes to submit his own evidence to prove them wrong , he can do so in court, but their own evidence has to prove their own case, so if their signs pics are poor etc then use their evidence against them and he should point out their deficiencies every time

question :- why are you , OR HE (or they) reading the BPA CoP version 7 when version 6 applies here as the contraventions occurred in 2016 ?

for allowed parking there are 2 grace periods , one before parking and one after parking , together they can be construed as up to 21 minutes in total, so up to say 10 minutes before and a minimum of over 10 (say 11 minutes) after the parking period itself = 10 + 11 = 21

so no you cannot assume that

you can assume that they took the initial time of entry , then the actual time of departure (as recorded by the ANPR cameras) and subtracted the two times leaving them with a time on site

then they subtract the allowed time from it and that gives them a total "overstay" which includes both the BEFORE and the AFTER added together

the relevant CoP actually says this , for clarity

13 Grace periods
13.1 Your approach to parking management must allow a driver who enters your car park but decides not to park, to leave the car park within a reasonable period without having their vehicle issued with a parking charge notice.
13.2 You should allow the driver a reasonable "grace period!" ; in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the driver is on your land without permission you should still allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave before you take enforcement action.
13.3 You should be prepared to tell us the specific grace period at a site if our compliance team or our agents ask what it is.

therefore you argue against their arguments and keep playing the "game" until they either put up or shut up

ie , until an MCOL is issued or the 6 years time limit passes

ps:- YOU have not received any response at all and they have argued against the points your dad made in HIS previous letter

your DAD received this response unless he has named the driver , which page one says he hasnt done

the words "ME , MYSELF & I" have no relevance here

Keeboard

Hi Redx,

Thanks for your response.

On your comment on the poor pictures; is there any legislation or legal document that relates to the kind of evidence that can be used in court, or is that for the Judge?

You're right! Rules have changed since 2016.

After the parking period, when would a parking period exactly end?

Yeah, when I say me or I, i meant my Dad, the registered keeper.

i have to write a response by tomorrow, otherwise they will "issue proceedings".

I will argue back but not throw my full argument and save that for court. I will post a draft here.

Redx

there has been info on signs etc posted on here , pepipoo and on parking pranksters website and I believe that the signs must be similar or conform to the ones used on public roads etc , but yes it is up to the judge in the end , apart from any higher rulings like the BEAVIS case

like I said then , you should be arguing V6 of the BPA CoP , even if they are stupidly arguing V7 , which shows their lack of due diligence

a parking period starts from when a vehicle "stops" and is "parked up" up until the engine is started, the handbrake is let off and the wheels start to turn , that seems obvious to me

grace periods start on entry to private property up until the vehicle has "parked" , plus from when the vehicle is started up and the wheels turn to the moment the vehicle leaves the private property , meaning there are 3 time periods, the midle one is the parking period , the first and third are grace periods

anpr captures a vehicle on entry and exit , so captures "time on site"

I suggest you do not use the word I, but use the royal "WE" , seeing as its a family affair , so everything you do away from here is WE, as you seem to be doing the work in his name

good luck

Keeboard

Hi Redx,

I'm finding it difficult to find any arguments against them.

They say that "a grace period of 10 minutes have been observed at the site before a parking charge notice was issues and photographs taken".

How can i argue against that?

They also sent me a picture of the digital copy of the signage at the site, when the ACTUAL picture taken from the Parking Officers camera is blurry and unreadble. They have a digital copy of the "apparently" signage at site, can I accept that as evidence that this may be the same signage?

Please help!

Redx

you cannot unless the driver had permission to be there, like payment , or free parking time , or a permit. on page 1 it states that NO PERMIT was on display despite the vehicle being parked on private land so the driver did not comply with the parking regime (not sure how you expect to argue against that scenario especially if the vehicle remained on site for longer than 10 minutes)

I posted the grace periods that apply, if the person took longer than 10 minutes to say arrive , read the signs , and depart , then the 10 minutes allowed is in the BPA CoP, plus a reasonable time to leave

once 10 minutes have elapsed they can decide to issue a parking charge notice if no permit was on display, be the vehicle parked for 10 minutes or 10 hours

only you know the facts of why this charge came about, so you have to account for the time from entry to exit as being justified, then argue it (but sometimes there is no argument because they have followed procedures and the CoP and the driver had no right to be there AND/OR failed their rules in some other way)

as for pictures and signage , you should always query them and never "accept" them as gospel

the overriding precedent here is this

they MUST prove their case as a claimant , or it fails

a defendant should be putting them to strict proof , querying everything and accepting nothing

Keeboard

Facts are, we had no permit. So cannot argue that.

Unfortunately, the event happened so long ago, we don't know how long we stayed there for. I guess, we can only assume that we arrived AFTER the 10 minutes. Not too sure if the site had ANPR. Are we able to ask for time left from site from claimant?

For the sake of argument, lets say that we arrive 11 or even 12 minutes after window ticket was given. Would i need to prove that we were there at 11 or 12 minutes after ticket was given? Since they took the pictures of the signage in proximity of the car (car included in the picture), i may have gone to read the sign elsewhere, right? or is that not plausible?

I'm trying to understand what reasons are acceptable under the grace period. Apart from reading the terms and conditions or going to fetch a permit (which we dont have and have to apply for beforehand)

At the moment, i can only argue the poor pictures provided and that we cannot assume they are the same as the clearer, digital copy they additionally provided.

Appreciate all your help Redx. You've been very patient with me, thank you.