What should I do about my solicitor?

N4Nikeir

Hey all

So I have a general headache about this conveyancing solicitor, and I am not sure what I should do to address the issues I have with him. I'm a first time buyer, and I've found a house that is miraculously in the area I want to live in and at a price I can afford. I got this solicitor who was recommended to me by someone who had used him for an inheritance matter. I was told he was able to sort out several problems with the estate with very little fuss or hoo-ha.

Boy, that has not been my experience! There have been several little moments that have bothered me, and then there is the big, pressing problem I'm actually really worried about. First, with the little niggly "bad deskside manner" things. I asked him fairly early on if he could give me an estimated date of completion, just a rough idea of when I could expect the sale to be wrapped up. He laughed and laughed as though it was the most ridiculous thing he had ever heard, and completely failed to tell me any rough date. He also didn't tell me what I could do to help things move on a bit more. I managed to speak to his secretary a bit later on that day, who was far more helpful, and told me that they were waiting on some documents from the other side, so I was then able to contact the estate agent to let them know the situation.

Another moment: he wasn't able to tell me what a peppercorn rent was. When I was told the house's ground rent was a peppercorn rent, I didn't know what it was (not being a conveyancer like him.) I asked him. He talked on and on about literal peppercorns in a grinder. I eventually lied and said I understood to stop him talking. A quick google told me what it was, which was a very simple definition that has nothing to do with peppercorns in a grinder.

He keeps complaining about the vendor's solicitors not being good, which is fair enough (they haven't been that great tbh). However, I find it quite petty and hypocritical - one week, he kept complaining about how late they were with returning their documents to him. A day later, I called the estate agent to hurry it along a bit. The estate agent tells me that they sent it that morning. "Great," think I. A few days go by, and I hear nothing, so I call my solicitor's office. They haven't heard anything. I call the estate agent again. They definitely e-mailed the docs through. I called my solicitor again - it turns out he's gone on holiday, not told me, and the other side's documentation is in his inbox, going unchecked. Eventually, the correct docs reach a person who can act on them.

That's the petty, basic incompetence stuff. It sucks, but I could live with it. But now, this guy is making noises that is making me extremely anxious that I might lose the sale.

So the house I am buying was marketed as a 3 bedroom - 2 normal bedrooms, and a loft conversion that has been comfortably in use for the last 12 years. On the survey, it was revealed that the loft conversion did not have planning permission, nor building approval. When pushed on this, the seller sent a message to my solicitor saying that the loft is not a bedroom, but used entirely for storage space. Which is obviously not the case.

Now call me hopelessly naive, but this does not turn me off the sale. As stated, the conversion has been in use for a long time, by tenants who did not report anything dodgy (and I'd expect them to be honest.) It's pretty nicely done, and while I do want to get a surveyor in to properly inspect it before committing to buy, I see it more as a reason to renegotiate the price, with a view to freeing up money to bring it up to standard. I've spoken to a friend's husband, who works on loft conversions, and apparently converting a loft but marketing it as storage space upon sale is quite common, and my mortgage broker has also told me his parents recently saw a similar arrangement in their house search - the problem here is that the house was marketed and described as 3 bedroom.

My solicitor's reaction upon learning about the loft, however, was immediate and utter pessimism. He immediately started to describe it as a possible non-starter, and that unless the seller was able to obtain retrospective planning permission, that I should not proceed. After the initial shock of this news, I did my own research into the matter, found out that not all loft conversions need planning permission, that this arrangement (with the conversion described as storage space) was not rare at all, and explained my desire to renegotiate the price, following a survey on the loft to make sure it was safe. In response, he sent me a brusque e-mail where he "needed to remind [me] that I act for your lender and not just for you" (I am taking out a 50% mortgage on the property.) He told me that if retrospective planning permission is not obtained, then he will tell the lender that he takes the view on the property as a 3 bedroom house with no planning permission for the loft area, and that insurance is not an option. Very concerned, I contacted my broker (who has been an absolute superstar, far more helpful and communicative than the solicitor), who told me that my lender is generally flexible with building criteria, and doesn't see why it can't be reassessed as a 2 bedroom. He let the lender know the situation, and told me that it is up to the solicitor to outline the situation so they can decide the next course of action. It may be that they reassess the property, it may be that they cancel the mortgage outright.

So my problem is this: do I get my solicitor to contact the lender? It will help things move along, but given his super grim view on the matter, I'm frightened he may convince them to cancel the mortgage. And how do I address my complete lack of confidence in this man? I don't think I have enough to make a formal complaint - I find his emails very brusque, minimal on the detail and dogmatic, and he has failed to act appropriately at several points, but nothing major. I have considered sending him an e-mail directly addressing his rudeness, minimal communication, and that I think he is unnecessarily jeopardising the sale when I think it still needs to be investigated. However, I'm not sure what good that will do me. Can I request a simple change in solicitor?

Thank you for any help/advice you may be able to offer!

Davesnave

Your solicitor is right to inform the lender as he acts for them and needs to cover his own backside.

Solicitors aren't builders and sometimes confuse building regulations and planning permission. Here, if the conversion has existed for 4 years, no lack of planning permission will matter anyway.

That leaves building regs which may be very hard to achieve retrospectively without effectively pulling parts of the conversion to bits. Indeed, it won't be as easy for any surveyor or structural engineer to assess what's there for you as your friend's husband suggests. It's unlikely the vendor will be happy to allow the sort of invasive surgery this could well involve.

What your vendor has been happy to do is allow tenants use this non-compliant and probable death-trap of a room as a bedroom for many years. I don't suppose the link with Grenfell is even on their radar.

My guess is that they won't do much to assist on assessing any reduction you might seek and that you'll have to guess somewhat about the extent of the work involved.

Bottom line; it's a dodgy set-up and you've complained about your solicitor before.

Tom99

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]He's right about the grinder though, that should be the 1st place you look if you receive a rent demand.[/FONT]

Smodlet

I would definitely change solicitors; he sounds like a pompous @ss and a nightmare, to say nothing of unprofessional in the way he communicates. Can you ask to be transferred to another conveyancer in the same firm?

There was another thread on here a couple of weeks or so ago about the same thing, except they had already bought the property so were stuck with resolving the problems with their loft conversion. I have had a quick look but cannot find it at the moment.

Davesnave, could you look through your posts and provide a link to it, please?

G_M

N4Nikeir wrote: »

......I asked him fairly early on if he could give me an estimated date of completion, just a rough idea of when I could expect the sale to be wrapped up. He laughed and laughed as though it was the most ridiculous thing he had ever heard, and completely failed to tell me any rough date.

He gave you an honest answer. Perhaps his bedside manner left a little to be desired, but there again, misunderstandings regarding humour do occur.

I sometimes make 'humourous' responses here which get misunderstood......

He also didn't tell me what I could do to help things move on a bit more.
Because in reality there is little you can do.

Patience is the answer.

I managed to speak to his secretary a bit later on that day, who was far more helpful, and told me that they were waiting on some documents from the other side, so I was then able to contact the estate agent to let them know the situation.
Don't see how that helps much. The EA is not involved in th conveyancing.

Another moment: he wasn't able to tell me what a peppercorn rent was. When I was told the house's ground rent was a peppercorn rent, I didn't know what it was (not being a conveyancer like him.) I asked him. He talked on and on about literal peppercorns in a grinder. I eventually lied and said I understood to stop him talking. A quick google told me what it was, which was a very simple definition that has nothing to do with peppercorns in a grinder.
???
But it does! Back in the day, when peppercorn rents were set up, and were common, payment was made by handing over a peppercorn (possibly sourced from a grinder!). Nowadays, peppercorns are so cheap that payment is often not requested!

He keeps complaining about the vendor's solicitors not being good, which is fair enough (they haven't been that great tbh). However, I find it quite petty and hypocritical - one week, he kept complaining about how late they were with returning their documents to him.
so your conveyancing is being delayed by the other side's solicitor not returning a document. Nothing your solicitor can do. You have no idea why this is - perhaps the other solicittor is waiting for their client (your seller) to answer a question. The delay could be anywhere/anything.

A day later, I called the estate agent to hurry it along a bit. The estate agent tells me that they sent it that morning. "Great," think I.
You can only rely at most 50% on any explanation you get from the EA, who also might not know (or might have been lied to).

A few days go by, and I hear nothing, so I call my solicitor's office. They haven't heard anything. I call the estate agent again. They definitely e-mailed the docs through. I called my solicitor again - it turns out he's gone on holiday, not told me, and the other side's documentation is in his inbox, going unchecked. Eventually, the correct docs reach a person who can act on them.
These things happen, though I agree cover should be better organsised when a holiday occurs.

Is this a large firm or a small 1 or 2-man outfit?

...
So the house I am buying was marketed as a 3 bedroom - 2 normal bedrooms, and a loft conversion that has been comfortably in use for the last 12 years. On the survey, it was revealed that the loft conversion did not have planning permission, nor building approval. When pushed on this, the seller sent a message to my solicitor saying that the loft is not a bedroom, but used entirely for storage space. Which is obviously not the case.
Fairly common where a seller has not followed the law.

Now call me hopelessly naive, but this does not turn me off the sale.
Your choice. But it should certainly ring some alarm bells. Hopefuly your solicitor highlighted the potential legal issues yes?

As stated, the conversion has been in use for a long time, by tenants who did not report anything dodgy (and I'd expect them to be honest.)
Tenants never do.

It's pretty nicely done, and while I do want to get a surveyor in to properly inspect it before committing to buy, I see it more as a reason to renegotiate the price, with a view to freeing up money to bring it up to standard. I've spoken to a friend's husband, who works on loft conversions, and apparently converting a loft but marketing it as storage space upon sale is quite common, and my mortgage broker has also told me his parents recently saw a similar arrangement in their house search - the problem here is that the house was marketed and described as 3 bedroom.
Indeed. But 'nicely done' generally means the decoration - the structural aspects will mostly be hidden.

My solicitor's reaction upon learning about the loft, however, was immediate and utter pessimism. He immediately started to describe it as a possible non-starter, and that unless the seller was able to obtain retrospective planning permission, that I should not proceed.
Ah! See my comment above!

His job is to give you legal advice. Your seller has ignored the law, created an illegal room, which could be dangerous, & tried to obfiscate this by calling it a 'storage area'.

You have a good solicitor.

Whether you choose to ignore his advice is up to you.

After the initial shock of this news, I did my own research into the matter, found out that not all loft conversions need planning permission, that this arrangement (with the conversion described as storage space) was not rare at all, and explained my desire to renegotiate the price, following a survey on the loft to make sure it was safe.
fair enough.
In response, he sent me a brusque e-mail where he "needed to remind [me] that I act for your lender and not just for you" (I am taking out a 50% mortgage on the property.)
Correct. He is acting for your lender, and he does have to remind you.

He told me that if retrospective planning permission is not obtained, then he will tell the lender that he takes the view on the property as a 3 bedroom house with no planning permission for the loft area, and that insurance is not an option.
He has a duty to his client - the mortgage lender. What the mortgage lender then decides is up the them.

Very concerned, I contacted my broker (who has been an absolute superstar, far more helpful and communicative than the solicitor), who told me that my lender is generally flexible with building criteria, and doesn't see why it can't be reassessed as a 2 bedroom. He let the lender know the situation, and told me that it is up to the solicitor to outline the situation so they can decide the next course of action. It may be that they reassess the property, it may be that they cancel the mortgage outright.
Indeed. So your complaint is what?

So my problem is this: do I get my solicitor to contact the lender?
????
You cannot stop him!
The mortgage lender is his client. He will (must) contact hem with his legal advice; they will review the matter; then either instruct him to proceed, or instruct him that they no longer wish to lend.

It will help things move along, but given his super grim view on the matter, I'm frightened he may convince them to cancel the mortgage.
Don't get involved. This is a matter between the solicitor and lender.

And how do I address my complete lack of confidence in this man?
Learn to be patient. You are over-reacting.

I don't think I have enough to make a formal complaint
Correct
- I find his emails very brusque, minimal on the detail and dogmatic,
He's a lawyer. He sends you facts. If you want a cuddly resonse, employ a social worker.

and he has failed to act appropriately at several points, but nothing major.
Frankly, the holiday seems the only point where he has let you down.

I have considered sending him an e-mail directly addressing his rudeness, minimal communication,
Pointless and counter-productive

and that I think he is unnecessarily jeopardising the sale when I think it still needs to be investigated.
Just as he has sent you legal facts, he has also reported the legal position to his other client, your lender.
That's his job.

What you decide as buyer, and what they decide as lender, is up to you, and to them.
However, I'm not sure what good that will do me.
None
Can I request a simple change in solicitor? Of course.
Do you mean within the same firm? Is it a large firm?
Or do you mean a different firm (which will set you back weeks or months)?

Thank you for any help/advice you may be able to offer!

Hope this helps put things in perspective.

bouicca21

has your vendor got the drawings from when the conversion was done so that you can assess the standard?

G_M

G_M wrote: »

Hope this helps put things in perspective.

I see you've been back online. Did I help put things in perspective, or have you not responded because I did not give the answer you wanted to read?

Be nice to know as I put some thought & tiime into my response!

Cakeguts

Run away from this house very very fast. You are buying a 2 bed house with a boarded loft. The fact that tenants have been sleeping in it doesn't mean that it was safe to do this it could just mean that they were very lucky. The main problems are likely to be structural as in will it fall down in a high wind lack of insulation as in it gets cold in the winter and boiling in the summer and worst of all doesn't meet fire regulations. Not meeting fire regulations means that if someone is sleeping in it and there is a fire the fire could easily spread to the loft and make it impossible for anyone to get out in time.

When the agents did the marketing on this property they would have sent the advert to the vendors to check that it was correct. It appears that the vendors didn't know that they were not selling a 3 bed house until it came up in your survey and they are now saying it is a loft room. You would think that they would know how many bedrooms the house had before your surveyor told them. What else don't they know?

What is the price of the house based on. Is it similar to other purpose built 3 bed houses or other similar 2 bed houses? It should be similar to other 2 bed houses. Your solicitor is trying to protect you from buying a problem property. He is also trying to protect the mortgage company from lending on a problem property.

Unless you want to spend a lot of money on the loft room you are going to finish up with a 2 bed house with loft storage is that what you want to buy or do you want a 3 bed house?

Smodlet

I agree with all of the above. I take no issue with what your solicitor is saying, only with how he says it. Apologies for any confusion.

Wish I could find that other thread; think that guy is going to be out about £7k from memory and that is mostly just for insulation. Your loft might be in far worse case than his. Walk!

kerri_gt

The property if it wasn't signed off by building regs is a 2 bed with a loft room. Not a 3 bed. The vendor will not be able to sell it as a 3 bed as it will flag for any other prospective buyer the same. If that's that you want to buy, and potently look to have the building regs approved at cost later down the line for a bedroom, then don't walk away but you'll have to renegotiate.

Your solicitor has given you correct information, although doesn't sound like the best people person - some people just aren't great communicators when they are trying to be professional.

AdrianC

N4Nikeir wrote: »

I asked him fairly early on if he could give me an estimated date of completion, just a rough idea of when I could expect the sale to be wrapped up. He laughed and laughed as though it was the most ridiculous thing he had ever heard, and completely failed to tell me any rough date.

Because it's simply not in his power to do so. It's entirely dependent on a myriad of factors - some of which are in his power, some are in your power, but (especially with a probate sale) most aren't.

He also didn't tell me what I could do to help things move on a bit more.

Get any decisions made quickly. Get your finances lined up. Get the survey done. And that's about it.

Another moment: he wasn't able to tell me what a peppercorn rent was. When I was told the house's ground rent was a peppercorn rent, I didn't know what it was (not being a conveyancer like him.) I asked him. He talked on and on about literal peppercorns in a grinder. I eventually lied and said I understood to stop him talking. A quick google told me what it was, which was a very simple definition that has nothing to do with peppercorns in a grinder.

Except it does. A peppercorn rent means that the ground rent is one peppercorn per year. Literally, one black peppercorn, just like the ones you put in a grinder. Spices used to be very valuable, centuries ago. It doesn't make sense, but that's what it is.

I called my solicitor again - it turns out he's gone on holiday, not told me, and the other side's documentation is in his inbox, going unchecked.

That's his PA's job, not his.

But now, this guy is making noises that is making me extremely anxious that I might lose the sale.

So the house I am buying was marketed as a 3 bedroom - 2 normal bedrooms, and a loft conversion that has been comfortably in use for the last 12 years. On the survey, it was revealed that the loft conversion did not have planning permission, nor building approval. When pushed on this, the seller sent a message to my solicitor saying that the loft is not a bedroom, but used entirely for storage space. Which is obviously not the case.

Now call me hopelessly naive, but this does not turn me off the sale.

OK, great. That's the right attitude to take, so long as you do so in the full awareness that a future buyer from you might not take the same attitude...

the problem here is that the house was marketed and described as 3 bedroom.

My solicitor's reaction upon learning about the loft, however, was immediate and utter pessimism. He immediately started to describe it as a possible non-starter

...and a future buyer isn't the only one that might have an issue. Your lender may, too, depending on what their valuation says.

In response, he sent me a brusque e-mail where he "needed to remind [me] that I act for your lender and not just for you" (I am taking out a 50% mortgage on the property.) He told me that if retrospective planning permission is not obtained, then he will tell the lender that he takes the view on the property as a 3 bedroom house with no planning permission for the loft area, and that insurance is not an option.

He's absolutely right.

Very concerned, I contacted my broker (who has been an absolute superstar, far more helpful and communicative than the solicitor), who told me that my lender is generally flexible with building criteria, and doesn't see why it can't be reassessed as a 2 bedroom. He let the lender know the situation, and told me that it is up to the solicitor to outline the situation so they can decide the next course of action. It may be that they reassess the property, it may be that they cancel the mortgage outright.

Yup. Remember, they're looking at the property as security for their loan.

It might be 50% based on what you're paying. Let's say that's a £100k mortgage on a £200k property. If they decide that it's only worth £160k, then that makes it a 62.5% LtV. If they decide it's only worth £140k, then that makes it just north of 71% LtV. Those may well increase the interest rate, they may decrease their willingness to lend at all.

So my problem is this: do I get my solicitor to contact the lender? It will help things move along, but given his super grim view on the matter, I'm frightened he may convince them to cancel the mortgage.

They need to know. They WILL know sooner or later. You cannot borrow money based on misinformation and lies-by-deliberate-omission.

And how do I address my complete lack of confidence in this man? I don't think I have enough to make a formal complaint - I find his emails very brusque, minimal on the detail and dogmatic, and he has failed to act appropriately at several points, but nothing major. I have considered sending him an e-mail directly addressing his rudeness, minimal communication, and that I think he is unnecessarily jeopardising the sale when I think it still needs to be investigated. However, I'm not sure what good that will do me. Can I request a simple change in solicitor?

Of course. But it'll put you back. He's there to be your legal advisor, not your mother. His job is not to hold your hand and give you a hug, but to make sure your purchase progresses properly, that you are buying what you think you are buying, and that the lender have proper security for their loan.