Acquiring unregistered land in front of my house

EachPenny

TeratoidBobcat wrote: »

There is a patch of grass between the boundary of my driveway and the pavement. I would like to acquire this piece of land in order to increase the size of my driveway. The boundary for nearly every house on my road goes up to the pavement. I am the first house where the boundary is set back, and this is the same for my three immediate neighbours, after which the boundaries go all the way up to the pavement.

Is your house (and the three neighbours) near one end of the street, or somewhere in the middle? One scenario for 'set back' is to improve visibility (sight lines) at junctions. If you aren't near a junction then obviously this doesn't apply.

TeratoidBobcat wrote: »

I have contacted my council and they have confirmed they do not own this land

The most likely scenario is the person you've spoken to at the Council has no idea what land they actually own, especially when it comes to small areas on or adjacent to the public highway. You need to be 110% certain the council doesn't own the land before you spend lots of money claiming it yourself, since if it comes to light the council does own it the chances of you being able to get hold of it are very slim.

TeratoidBobcat wrote: »

This small patch of land has no public benefit as there is a standard width pavement and grass verge between the land and the road for public use. My belief is that the public right of way is a historic thing from when the houses in our area were first built.

You'll be surprised what public benefits might be found once it become obvious to other people that you've claimed the land for yourself. As for a historic right of way, have you checked this on old Ordnance Survey maps?

TeratoidBobcat wrote: »

Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can apply for the public right of way to be extinguished and then to take on the land? My council has suggested I apply for planning permission on that land and then apply for a stopping order under section 247 of the town and country planning act (as opposed to section 116 of the highways act).

Stopping up is always a possibility, and it might be slightly less painful doing it via TCPA. The only problem might be demonstrating the need to stop up under TCPA, simply changing use to residential doesn't require the stopping up to be done - building a garage or an extension on the land would. People have residential land with PROW's crossing them. You also need to consider the cost of going down this route vs the value of the land you'd gain.

I might be tempted to start by treating the land as mine by cutting the grass, digging some nice borders and planting them up, maybe a shrub or two. If nobody (including the Highways Authority) objects then you are well on the way to achieving your objective. If they do object, move the shrubs, and stop cutting the grass.

Before doing that, make absolutely sure there are no utilities under the land - especially telecoms ducts and electricity cables.

ProDave

Re applying for PP on land you do not own.

There is a "problem" If you do so you must serve notice on the owner of the land that you are applying got PP and sign a declaration and provide the owners details. That might prove tricky if you can't find the "owner"

Re the ROW, put a gate or stile on any new fence, job done.

TeratoidBobcat

Thank you for all of the replies.

I do ultimately want to put a wall and gate around the extended driveway. I'm quite risk averse and so would not want to try and do anything like this before trying to get the ROW extinguished.
I also don't have money to spare on fines or having to undo anything!

I am tempted to consult further with my council on this matter before putting in any applications. Am slightly concerned that this might just prompt them into trying to claim ownership of the land for themselves. But I suppose they could still do that after I apply anyway.

ProDave wrote: »

Re applying for PP on land you do not own.

There is a "problem" If you do so you must serve notice on the owner of the land that you are applying got PP and sign a declaration and provide the owners details. That might prove tricky if you can't find the "owner"

Re the ROW, put a gate or stile on any new fence, job done.

Not knowing who owns the land before applying for PP must happen quite often I would have thought. Especially in more rural areas?

Cakeguts wrote: »

My suspicion is that the reason why these houses have been built with this patch of land left like that is because the builder of the houses couldn't get rid of the right of way.

I have a suspicion the ROW exists because when the houses were first built, the developer wanted to leave some community "green space" in the middle of the road. This has also been alluded to in a history of the area that I read. Of course, it's no longer used like that and in 20+ years I've not seen anyone walking on that patch of grass as there is a perfectly good pavement right next to it!

Tiglet2 wrote: »

Could there be the slightest chance that cables run through the patch of grass, such as BT cables, internet cables or even drainage pipes? If so, it may prove very difficult to acquire the patch of land without the agreement of those companies.

I did consider if there might be utilities running under the land. I have no definitive answer, but this would not be very logical as it would be more efficient for the utilities to run in a straight line across the entire road rather than zig-zagging into and out of the patch of land. Of course, the utilities may not have been laid in a logical way!

elmer wrote: »

Will any of the above remedies cause you issues when you come to sell, I certainly wouldn't want to buy a house with an unresolved ROW on part of the garden

Good point about this being a potential issue when we come to sell. My plan is to claim adverse possession of the land and I really don't see us moving in the next 12 years.

EachPenny wrote: »

The most likely scenario is the person you've spoken to at the Council has no idea what land they actually own, especially when it comes to small areas on or adjacent to the public highway. You need to be 110% certain the council doesn't own the land before you spend lots of money claiming it yourself, since if it comes to light the council does own it the chances of you being able to get hold of it are very slim.


You'll be surprised what public benefits might be found once it become obvious to other people that you've claimed the land for yourself. As for a historic right of way, have you checked this on old Ordnance Survey maps?

How can I find out for sure if the council does own the land? LR says it's unregistered, but I appreciate that someone must still own it! Also - what do you mean by checking historic ROW on OS maps? Can you please help explain what this means and how I do this?

Cakeguts

Even if you claim adverse possession you will still have land with a ROW running over it. ROWs are extremely difficult to get rid of even if they don't lead anywhere. I would think that it is highly likely that the land is owned by the council or even the people who now own the building company that built the houses.

stator

Don't waste your time trying to get rid of the RoW. It's very unlikely to succeed. You won't be able to claim adverse possession because you haven't stopped other people using the land, because you haven't blocked off the RoW.

If you want to extend your drive, then I would just do it. As long as the RoW isn't blocked, it's unlikely anyone will complain. If no-one thinks they own the land, they won't complain. Just make sure that your existing driveway continues to work without the land, then it shouldn't affect your ability to sell the house. If someone spots your driveway is too big, you could always revert it to the original width.

EachPenny

TeratoidBobcat wrote: »

Of course, the utilities may not have been laid in a logical way!

Utilities are never laid in a logical way.

You should be able to get some advice from the utility companies though. They sometimes charge for location services, but if you explain you are a householder and plan to build a new boundary wall (for example) they will often come out and mark any cable routes up for free - it costs them a lot less to do that than repair damaged cables. E.g. for BT have a look here:-
https://www.ournetwork.openreach.co.uk/locating-our-network/letting-us-know-about-streetworks.aspx

TeratoidBobcat wrote: »

How can I find out for sure if the council does own the land? LR says it's unregistered, but I appreciate that someone must still own it! Also - what do you mean by checking historic ROW on OS maps? Can you please help explain what this means and how I do this?

The route I normally suggest is to find out who the Council's property services (PS) manager is and make direct contact with them. When councils dispose of land it normally has to be reported to a committee in a public report. If you search the council's website it is normally possible to find a committe report about disposal of land, and this will have the name of the report author and their contact details.

You ideally need to find the name and email address of someone senior in the PS team. Their job these days is to maximise revenue coming into the council by selling off unwanted land holdings. So anyone approaching them directly asking to buy land will normally get their attention. If you enter the system via a call centre your enquiry could end up anywhere.

I'd briefly explain there is a bit of land in front of your house, which you think the council might own (even though they have advised otherwise) and you'd like to buy it. If they do own it they will either start negotiating with you, or else tell you to go away. If they cannot prove ownership then they cannot sell it to you, and therefore will give you an unequivocal answer regarding their (non)ownership.

As far as the maps go, old OS maps often show tracks and paths - this was one of the source materials when the original definitive ROW maps were produced. There is the usual disclaimer about paths on OS maps not being a proof of a ROW, but you already know there is one. Looking at an old OS map will therefore give you an idea of whether the path (ROW) existed before the houses were built, or if it was something the developer created at the time the development happened. One source of old maps is here, but there are others:- http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#

You should find where your house is first, then experiment with the different choices of 'old' map. It is also worth having a look to see if your council has an online GIS system with old mapping as some councils have a variety of different dated maps for their area. If you can't find your street online then the alternative is to visit the main local library or archives centre who usually hold paper copies of old maps.

Essentially what you are looking for is whether this ROW is historic forming a connection from point A to point B, or something which was just a by-product of the development.