Is it really THAT important to own your own home?

inmypocketnottheirs

carolt wrote: »

How about

Lying
Underhand
Cheating
Knocking others?

Just a suggestion?....

Good suggestion..... if you are a glass half empty type of person!

franklee

BobProperty wrote: »

Woah! That's another "how are you going to write the legislation". Too loose everyone gets round it. (Ltd Co's already mentioned by you). Too tight and small businesses get hit. BTL get interest relief because they are businesses (of sorts - they are investment businesses not trading businesses, there's a revenue definition difference, can't remember all the technicalities but income off a BTL is investment income, income off a Holiday Let is a trade.)

Good point! I'm falling into the same trap as pinkshoes

Although I thought this one was a remote possibility:

http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=8174&highlight=petition

HugoSP

lieutenant_dan wrote: »

Nonsense. And sorry, but yes, I am anti btl investors, due to the knock on effect caused to people like myself.

I must admit I was quite annoyed when I first read this post but upon re reading it you make some good points, and such I feel your post deserves a considered response.

I don't doubt for a minuite that btl investors make it harder for people like yourself to buy your own home. I'm not pretending otherwise. Unfortunately this is a free market economy that screws us all in different ways. I do feel for you and others but I'm not going to let sentiments get in my way when an opportunity arises. I doubt you would either if it had the potential to better your lifestyle. You neet to think of no 1. We all do.

You're "providing a service", rentors "pay less on rent than the equivalent mortgage for the same property". This is all a fallout from the way btl investors have distorted the housing market in the first place.

I don't think this is purely down to Btl activity, but I accept that btls do contribute.

This service you're providing, has it ever occurred to you that people aren't renting through choice? I always hear this from btl investors, our tenants are happy etc, don't kid yourself to sleep at night. Some people do choose to rent for whatever reason, many do not. As if people generally really want to pay towards someone else's mortgage, get real. As a businessman, if you were on the other side of this fence, would you see the logic in paying out high rental prices, of basically "dead money" with no return on it?

Actually some people do rent though choice. I gave you the examples of my tenants who travel a lot. Other tenants I have rented to couldn't buy a house in any market, due to bad credit or the fact they cannot work and get a mortgage. I do accept though that some cannot buy purely because of high prices.

Let's not forget that the many people being deprived of buying a house due mainly to the market distortion are just simply looking for a home (something you have already), what all working people should be entitled to have the chance of, not looking at it in monetary terms of potential future gains (unless in the event of upgrading)

It's wrong, there's plenty of other business opportunites to get involved in.
There WILL be serious knock on effects too in years to come if this situation doesn't get any better. What is this nonsense? People owning their own residence and sometimes up to 10 or 20 other houses. Ludicrous.

I'm not saying it's right. In the same way that people who buy their council houses for a fraction of the cost do it because they can get on the property ladder this way and sell in a few years time. Many people who take advantage of this scheme understand that shortage of council houses can cause social issues, but it's too good an opportunity to turn down. I don't know one person who has not taken advantage of this opportunity because they have a social concience. Do you?

If you were suddenly offered the chance to buy your home at some 60% of its value, please don't tell me you would turn it down.

Quite frankly I'm p*ssing myself at a lot of what you've written, you've even worked the obligatory helpless little old lady into the equation, and your examples of other businesses are irrelevant to this debate, but again, whatever helps you to sleep at night.

..and the point of this is??

You're in it for yourself basically and capitalising on circumstances

Yup.

this may sound very harsh, but I'll have no sympathy whatsoever if/when it turns and btl investors get caught out. If for no other reason than the btl investor will generally already be in their own home. Many stuck on the outside of the housing market now do not have that luxury.

I wouldn't expect your or anyone elses' sympathy. We take a risk and hope it pays off. If it goes pair shaped we have to deal with this ourselves. That's life. It hasn't always gone smoothly with bad tenants and useless agents.

Then again your feelings on this debate entirely depend on if you've bought, when you've bought, or if you've gotten in on the btl.

Not quite. Despite the fact that my investments may stagnate or even fall in value in the near future, I am glad that the market has slowed up for several reasons, not least that a slide/stagnation now could prevent a bigger slide in the future. However, I don't like the fact that most would be buyers struggle more than they used to. It's not that I don't care, but it's the fact that I have to live in the real world, as you do.

Don't forget, many people with btls have children/grandchildren who will need houses in the future. This maybe part of the motivation in investing in property.

A generation ago people could choose to either rent or buy purely depending on prevailing curcumstances, now they have to consider their future position on the market. This will also surely distort the market.

Melissa177

carolt wrote: »

Thanks for explaining your original post, pinkshoes.

The problems with your analogy, are twofold. Firstly, as I explained elsewhere, petrol is not an essential to human survival in the same way that having a roof over one's head is (in the British climate at least) - you can walk/cycle/use biofuels etc, but you can't live in a tent in midwinter or expect families to sleep in the streets.

Sorry, this is completely OT, but petrol/petrochemicals are just as integral to your life as shelter/food is. Shampoo, laundry detergent, plastic bottles and pretty much every other consumer good in your household are all made from petrochemicals. It all gets to the supermarket via a diesel-powered lorry too.


Housing is a commodity just like anything else. I think the fact we have such high house prices shows how desperate people are to own our own home. And Englishman's house is his castle, after all. It's part of our national psych: why do you think those house programs are so popular.

It's tought right now for FTBs, but where there is a will there is a way, and if house prices were genuinely unaffordable, people wouldn't be buying.

carolt

franklee wrote: »

For many posts I'm with you carolt and Lavendyr, but on this last couple I'm with BobProperty. I think adding more regulations like some of pinkshoes's suggestions would do more harm than good. I think the solution to the housing problems should be to tighten up on lending criteria and let the market crash.

Interesting discussion of just how the housing market could be improved - I take your points, franklee, about the feasibility of restricting the number of BTL's. Unlike you, I am quite confident that the market will come down - at what speed, to what level and over what period I would not like to predict - whatever Gordon does; he can postpone it but not put it off for good.

But whilst the market correcting/crashing is good for would-be buyers, it is undoubtedly not good for the economy - I remember the last recession, and frankly, this could be much worse. Recessions are not pleasant - it would be nice if a solution could be imposed without having to bring the rest of the economy down too...

And must disagree, Melissa177 - it's perfectly possible to live without all those things derived from petrol you described - people did for hundreds of years until this century, and when the natural resources eventually run out, will have to get used to doing so again. Whereas even cavemen had caves - in a Northern European climate, shelter in winter isn't exactly a luxury, optional item.

Melissa177

carolt wrote: »

And must disagree, Melissa177 - it's perfectly possible to live without all those things derived from petrol you described - people did for hundreds of years until this century, and when the natural resources eventually run out, will have to get used to doing so again. Whereas even cavemen had caves - in a Northern European climate, shelter in winter isn't exactly a luxury, optional item.

I'm quite happy living in 2007, despite its many flaws, rather than the stone age!

I get the impression you'd prefer a time when none of us had money, and foraged for food instead....

Melissa177

Also, since this thread is getting quite serious, here's some humour:

carolt

Melissa177, I think discussion of a flawed analogy has gone about as far as (if not somewhat further than) it is worth taking it.

Happy to leave it there.

Any new thoughts on actual point of discussion?

Melissa177

I think it's part of our national psych to own our own space. I think it's of paramount importance to the English (and I do mean English: there is something very English about wanting to own your own property. Not to say the Scots & Welsh don't feel the same way, but it does feel like the English are obsessed by it).

There is a really good book by Kate Fox called "Watching the English" which discusses our national obsession with house-buying (or castle-building). A really good read.

lieutenant_dan

Fair play to you Hugo for coming back and debating the points raised. Didn't exactly mince my words!

Still stand by my original post though.

You say btl investors aren't solely to blame for the sky high prices at present. Well who are buying these properties currently? More btl investors or people who are severely overextending to get any sort of property, and probably a fair percentage of these were also fraudulent applications! This is the desperation some people have to get a foot on even the bottom rung of the ladder.

Before the widespread concept of btl, there's simply no market at these prices. Not at as much as 9 times the average salary for the average house in some areas as has been highlighted already in this thread, and 6 times the salary generally. The desperate will still try to get a property however risky, but it's generally btl artificially inflating the market, and then sustaining the market to these types of levels, so it wouldn't be necessary for people to stretch themselves to this extent. As I said, over 6 times the average salary is not realistic if the buying market was purely for people looking to buy a home and not investors, and the prices would then drop to affordable, realistic levels for people simply looking to buy a home.

Yes, people will always look to rent for various reasons, because they don't want to have the commitment of a mortgage, or maybe because they move around a lot with their job, or whatever. But before this btl gravy train, I can never remember a time when there was a shortage of rental properties. Some landlords have always speculated with acquiring several properties, or others rent out their property whilst going off travelling. But the difference now is your average joe bloggs who would never have thought of going down this route is now also jumping on the btl bandwagon, sustaining these unrealistic artificial prices, and creating an additional problem adding to the housing shortage. If there's a shortage, then why are some people buying over 20 houses in some cases, when they'll only live in one of them? There's far, far too many landlords in the market now as opposed to potential homeowners.

Could be argued this craze is a reaction to the pensions crisis, but at least current homeowners and btl investors will have their own property in retirement, not something those currently standing with their noses pressed against the glass can say with any confidence, whilst also facing a problem with pensions in retirement.

Looking forward to the day the prices do eventually come back to "normality", but the rub is many of my families and friends did buy at high prices, and face problems such as negative equity, so there'll be many losers as well as winners in that scenario. They're the people I would feel sorry for, not greedy btl investors. And as someone else also mentioned, a crash in house prices may also be accompanied by a recession, which would hit the industry I work in quite hard, so ironically I could be out of work anyway if/when the prices come right down!