FIL in hospital

lisyloo

My FIL (90 in May) is in hospital (admitted 5 weeks ago).
I have informed DWP as I know his attendance allowance stops after 4 weeks and pensions creidt and council tax benefits could be affected.

My question is about the process for his stay being regarded as temporary/permanent.
He has a number of chronic conditions such as heart failure, kidney failure and his chest isn't good having smoked for 70 years. His is exhausted and sleeps most of the time. The hospital are currently trying to get him moving but he is obstinate and mostly refuses. I'm not sure what % is obstinence and what % is exhaustion but he's not putting any effort in to make a recovery and his character is to be ostinate and lazy.
Currently he is there temporarily and the hope would be to get him home, but TBH my unqualified opinion is that he will be transferred to a community hospital and stay there indefinitely.

We are some way off before they give up but how does his official status change from temporary to permanent?
What's the process? and likely timescale?
He's been there 5 weeks but it's only 1 weeks they've started physio.

I'm asking in advance because if this does happen we'll need to sell the joint home to pay MIL's care fees and we'll need to get deputyship for her which takes some time.

TIA

pmlindyloo

As you know attendance Allowance will stop after 4 weeks. If your FIL is claiming a severe disability premium with his Pension Credit then this will also stop as it is dependent on his receiving AA and his PC may go down or stop altogether.

You need to contact Pension Credit (they may speak to you) or check your FIL's bank account to see if he is still receiving Pension Credit.

Pension Credit can continue indefinitely if he still in eligible for it (even in a nursing home)

As regards council tax then any council tax reduction will continue as long as he receives PC. Even if this stops he may still be entitled to CTR based on a low income. So, sort out PC and then sort out CTR.

While your FIL is in his hospital his main residence is his house so council tax liability should remain the same. I am not sure what you mean by community hospital - do you mean a permanent move to a nursing home?

At the moment I think you need to wait and see how things pan out. Are social services involved? If not, then it is probably a 'wait and see' scenario'.

In the meantime, make sure that his house is regularly visited and checked for any 'problems' (probably necessary for insurance purposes as well as common sense.

Has MIL lost mental capacity? Has FIL got mental capacity? Have you got lasting power of attorney for him?

As regards selling the property then do not worry. You still have time to get this sorted when you know what is happening to FIL. But if you want everything ready 'just in case' then why not apply now?

lisyloo

Thanks for your reply.

You need to contact Pension Credit

The person I spoke to said that the call would suffice for all DWP benefits and specifically stated pension credit.

I am not sure what you mean by community hospital

A different type of hospital more geared up for his needs (physio/rehab), no it's not a nursing home. A nursing home is another option if his medical needs can be met there.
We are familiar with the process for discharge to nursing home as we went through that for MIL. There were observations over a month and then a formal meeting, so a specific date/time when agreements were made and she was declared as not capacble of making decisions.
I am asking about the process for being considered permanent in hospital as opposed to now when from a benefits point of view he is there temporarily.

At the moment I think you need to wait and see how things pan out

3 reasons not to do that are
1) deputyship for MIL takes quite a long time (judges, courts involved)
2) MIL currently would probably get a reduction in the cost (around £1000?) as home would be disregarded as he still (officially) lives there.
3) If it delays sales we pay council tax, service charges, ground rent as well as retain liability e.g. if there were a leak.

Are social services involved?

They were involved in his case as he was receiving care visits at home twice a day. Right now they aren't involved.

Has MIL lost mental capacity? Has FIL got mental capacity? Have you got lasting power of attorney for him?

Yes she has lost capacity - this is official. She would not agree to POA.

FIL does have mental capacity but is asleep most of the time. He would not be able to visit a solicitors office but he could sign documents. His son and daughter have POA (prompted by MILs situation).

As regards selling the property then do not worry. You still have time to get this sorted when you know what is happening to FIL. But if you want everything ready 'just in case' then why not apply now?

The property is jointly owned so my understanding is that we need to apply for deputyship under court of protection for MIL to sell the home.
I understand this takes some time, during which we'd have to pay service charges (circa £3K), ground rent (cira £500) and council tax (unless exempt), plus be liable for any issues (low risk).
There are practical reasons it hasn't been done yet (daughter is visiting hospital every day and hates paperwork, son has been on holiday and currently tied up with VAT return). If I have any additional info I may be able to use it as motivation to get it prioritised.

What I am specifically asking about is the process for him being declared "permanent" in hospital, or do we just carry on year after year with it being officially "temporary". I would have thought there would be some rules. Currently MIL's nursing home is funded by LA as home is disregarded so for that reason I would expect some rules - such as either an assesment or time limit.

pmlindyloo

I am sorry that I may have misunderstood your question.

Are you concerned specifically about whether the local authority would say that your FIL was no longer resident in his home and therefore the property would have to be sold to pay for your MIL's care fees?

I believe that until your FIL moves permanently to a nursing home then he would still be considered as resident in the house.

In my personal opinion people do not remain in hospital for years without an assessment being done as regards to moving them to a more suitable place. Moving to a hospital for rehab would be temporary to assess whether he could (after rehab) go back home.
Honestly I do not know for sure the answer to your question (and again, I may be misunderstanding you)

From my experience decisions will be made in a matter of months not years.

You could telephone AgeUK and ask any specific questions.

https://www.ageuk.org.uk/contact-us/

silvercar

I understand this takes some time, during which we'd have to pay service charges (circa £3K), ground rent (cira £500) and council tax (unless exempt), plus be liable for any issues (low risk).

I don't know who you mean by 'we'. It would still all be the liability of the property owners rather than their next of kin. If you had POA you would pay on their behalf from their money.

lisyloo

No worries, I may not have explained well.

It is possible to stay in hospital permanently.
Sometimes medical needs exceed what can be provided in a nursing home.

We don't have any issue at all with the flat used to pay for care (why should tax payers fund it if they have an empty flat?) I'm just trying to understand how we transition from temporary status to permanent status from a benefits perspective.
If he moves to a nursing home then that's very easy from a benefits perspective as there will be a date when he transfers, but if he stays in the same place it's not clear how his status changes.

lisyloo

I don't know who you mean by 'we'. It would still all be the liability of the property owners rather than their next of kin.

MIL and FIL jointly own the property.
FIL is asleep and MIL can't tell can't the difference between a remote control and a telephone handset, so we operate the payments on their behalf (it's all on direct debit).
We have done for a few years as MIL has dimensia and couldn't cope with it and FIL hasn't dealt with money at all during their 60 year marriage so he wouldn't have a clue.

My point was if the sale is delayed 6 months because we need deputyship then the bills still have to be paid.

pmlindyloo

lisyloo wrote: »

No worries, I may not have explained well.

It is possible to stay in hospital permanently.
Sometimes medical needs exceed what can be provided in a nursing home.

We don't have any issue at all with the flat used to pay for care (why should tax payers fund it if they have an empty flat?) I'm just trying to understand how we transition from temporary status to permanent status from a benefits perspective.
If he moves to a nursing home then that's very easy from a benefits perspective as there will be a date when he transfers, but if he stays in the same place it's not clear how his status changes.

Pension Credit can be paid when in hospital/nursing home/wherever (unless you leave the country) but you need to check if he is still entitled to Pension Credit after losing possible disability premiums.

Presumably the other question is about council tax. You will have to ask your FIL's local council about this as they each operate different systems.

lisyloo

Thanks. I'm not asking about pension credit or council tax.

I'm asking how does his status change from temporary to permanent in hospital?
The reason why we need to know this is that temporary means his residence is his flat and it's disregarded as an asset for the pursposes of MIL's care home fees (and both pension credits and council tax benefits).
If he becomes a permanent resident in hospital then the flat changes from being a home to an asset and MIL will change from an LA payer to a private payer in her nursing home and we will need to sell their flat.

We will obviously know if he transfers to a nursing home and the date will be clear because there will be a physical move, but how will we know if he changes from temporary to permanent status?
Is there an assesment after a certain time period? do LA or DWP have rules for this? I expect they do considering the sums at stake.

pmlindyloo

lisyloo wrote: »

Thanks. I'm not asking about pension credit or council tax.

I'm asking how does his status change from temporary to permanent in hospital?
The reason why we need to know this is that temporary means his residence is his flat and it's disregarded as an asset for the pursposes of MIL's care home fees (and both pension credits and council tax benefits).
If he becomes a permanent resident in hospital then the flat changes from being a home to an asset and MIL will change from an LA payer to a private payer in her nursing home and we will need to sell their flat.

We will obviously know if he transfers to a nursing home and the date will be clear because there will be a physical move, but how will we know if he changes from temporary to permanent status?
Is there an assesment after a certain time period? do LA or DWP have rules for this? I expect they do considering the sums at stake.

First of all I think you would have to rely on the doctors to tell you when the move/stay in hospital is a permanent one or not.

As regards the disregard of the house for your MIL's care fees then I do not believe there is a set time when your FIL would no longer be considered resident unless doctors confirmed that he would not be returning to his home.

I have found this article which I am hoping may be of use to you. It says that a person does not have to be occupying the house to be considered resident. The local authority would have to consider each individual case but there is some helpful information in the article.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/322906/Relatives_Property_Disregard_Guidance_final.pdf

Again, I feel the matter of when he is no longer resident would when the doctors tell you that he will not be able to return.

lisyloo

Thanks for the link.
I will continue to press for NOK to get deputyship as a nursing home is more probable (because nursing homes in our areas are £800 per week and hospitals are £3K per week).
The practical issues are that we all have jobs, homes, children, companies, commutes etc. and hence have other commitments on top of seperately visiting MIL and FIL and looking after their flat.