Advice over 2 PCN's on residential parking

The_Deep

To win this at PoPLA you have to prove that that your lease/AST gives you the unfettered right to park there, and that it trumps any made up terms and conditions which the PPC may rely on. You do not have a lease/AST.

A PPC will reject your appeal, even if exquisitely written. If your landlord is not paying tax on your rent I am sure that he would not want this mentioned in court.

Coupon-mad

You might well be able to win at POPLA (OPS being not good at POPLA evidence), if you show your landlord's primacy of contract and maybe a letter from him saying, while staying in his flat, you had an unfettered right to park, flowing from his own rights in his lease (copy attached).

You could have 100% won it had you appealed as 'hirer/lessee' of the car. Next time!!

OPS are useless at POPLA and might forget the landowner authority anyway.

Well worth putting together a strong POPLA appeal, and even if you decide not to try, I would NEVER tell a relative of mine to pay a penny to a firm like OPS! DO NOT PAY.

Half_way

As above, as your friend who you are renting off fur the details of they have primacy of lease and its their space then the ppc had no right in obtaining RK data, and using / processing it.
Lots of ands and ifs, but if all lines up there could be a data protection act breach by the ppc and the management company that hired then.

waamo

Current likelihood of them going to court looks very low.

http://www.bmpa.eu/companydata/One_Parking_Solution.html

JohnDunn

So bearing that in mind, as a leaser of my vehicle, I should still try a strong appeal for the second PCN from OPS?

In the case of the second PCN the permit was half on display, infuriatingly. I've found it confusing reading the various threads and advice on the leasing aspect and receiving a Notice to Hirer over that of a Notice to Keeper.

Coupon-mad

So bearing that in mind, as a leaser of my vehicle, I should still try a strong appeal for the second PCN from OPS?

Yes. Show us your draft, like this lessee/contract hirer did earlier:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/73887484#Comment_73887484

Trouble is, if you said who was driving then you can't even use the POFA, at all.

In the case of the second PCN the permit was half on display, infuriatingly. I've found it confusing reading the various threads and advice on the leasing aspect and receiving a Notice to Hirer over that of a Notice to Keeper.

Doesn't matter if you threw that baby out with the bathwater, in the first appeal.

The linked case shows a good appeal, from a hirer/lessee who hasn't blabbed about the driver. KInd of 'here's what you should have done'.

However, I really would not lose any sleep over the ex-clampers OPS. Not the sharpest tools in the box at POPLA and not big on litigation, nor do they appear to have the nous to get such things right.

JohnDunn

Would paying up the first PCN have a negative effect on the second?

JohnDunn

Ok here is the draft for appeal to OPS for PCN 2:

"Dear One Parking Solutions Ltd

RE: PCN No. xxxxxxxxx

I would like you to know I (as the registered keeper of the vehicle) am not ignoring your letter suggesting my liability for a charge related to a parking infraction that you state took place on xx xxxxxxxx at xxxxxxxxx.

I wish to outline my current position in reference to your PCN.

Keepers Liability and POFA 2012
As stated in paragraph 13(2) of POFA 2012...

"The creditor may not exercise the right under paragraph 4 to recover from the keeper any unpaid parking charges specified in the notice to keeper if, within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which that notice was given, the creditor is given!!!8212;

(a) A statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement;

(b) A copy of the hire agreement; and

(c) A copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement.

AND

Paragraph 14(2) and (3) of POFA 2012:

(2) The conditions are that !!!8212;
(a) The creditor has within the relevant period given the hirer a notice in accordance with sub-paragraph (5) (a !!!8220;notice to hirer!!!8221;), together with a copy of the documents mentioned in paragraph 13(2) and the notice to keeper;
(b) A period of 21 days beginning with the day on which the notice to hirer was given has elapsed; and
(c) The vehicle was not a stolen vehicle at the beginning of the period of parking to which the unpaid parking charges relate.
(3) In sub-paragraph (2)(a) !!!8220;the relevant period!!!8221; is the period of 21 days beginning with the day after that on which the documents required by paragraph 13(2) are given to the creditor.[/I]

- You were required to send this information to me (as Registered Keeper) within 21 days after receiving them from the lease/hire company (Arval).
- You were required to send these documents to me no later than 49 days after the NTK was sent to the hire company, which was xx October.
- Therefore I should have received these documents no later than xx December 2015.
- As this has not happened, you cannot use POFA to assume keeper liability. There is more than one driver of the vehicle which you placed a PCN on.

In Summary...
- I wish to confirm to you I was NOT the driver of the vehicle.
- I am not obliged to disclose the identity of the driver and this does not affect my liability in this matter .
- As One Parking Solutions Ltd has not complied with paragraphs 13 (2) and 14 (2) of POFA 2012, you cannot rely on the provisions of the Act and hold me liable as keeper.
- You will need to pursue this claim with the driver once you identify them.

Further Questions
To begin our discussions, as this is purely a claim under a purported contract, and you have no statutory footing to issue penalties, I wish to make you aware of the following details and require the specific information so that I can assess the validity of your claim:

1. Who is the party that contracted with One Parking Solutions Ltd for the provision of their services at the site of the alleged to have taken place in Cardiff (Ferry Road Retail Park)?
2. What is the full legal identity of the landowner?
3. As you are not the landowner, please provide a contemporaneous and unredacted copy of your contract with the landholder that demonstrate that One Parking Solutions Ltd have the authority of the landowner to both issue parking charges and legislate in your own name or on behalf of the landowner .
4. Is your charge based on damages for breach of contract? - Yes or no?
5. If the charge is based on damages for breach of contract, please provide justification of this sum.
6. Is your charge based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking? - Yes or no?
7. If the charge is based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking please, provide a valid VAT invoice as you make no mention on VAT in any correspondence.
8. The signage to the site (from a seated position in the vehicle as it enters the car park is impossible to read and any specific rules regarding stopping on yellow lines being strictly prohibited at any time. Please provide a copy of the sign that purportedly forms the basis of the contract entered into by the driver for my records.
9. I believe the parking attendant who took photos of this vehicle (as the driver sat momentarily with the engine running on double yellow lines) made no attempt to make the driver aware he should move the car or face a parking charge. It is the responsibility of the claimant (One Parking Solutions Ltd) to mitigate their losses, in this instance I believe they failed to do so and thus invalidates your claim. I refer you to the county court judgement in VCS vs. Ibbotson (2012):

Link: http://nebula.wsimg.com/e3da92cb966c72de63ec1f98605c2954?AccessKeyId=4CB8F 2392A09CF228A46&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

Next Steps
When I receive a full reply to all these questions i will be in a position to be able to furnish you with a full response.

Alternatively you can cancel your charge, or I will happily wait for my day in court to challenge this PCN as the registered keeper of the vehicle.

Note: I have contacted the landowner to strongly protest in writing the basis for this PCN.

Yours
Xxxxxx xxxxxxx"

Umkomaas

1. Who is the party that contracted with One Parking Solutions Ltd for the provision of their services at the site of the alleged to have taken place in Cardiff (Ferry Road Retail Park)?

9. I believe the parking attendant who took photos of this vehicle (as the driver sat momentarily with the engine running on double yellow lines) made no attempt to make the driver aware he should move the car or face a parking charge.

Neither of the above statements seem to gel with your opening post where you said this:

They are the private parking company managing the private parking area where I am currently renting.

On the first occasion I had forgotten to place my permit on the dash after a period of stress. The second I without realising had had the permit obscured under the tint on the bottom of my car's windscreen.

JohnDunn

Another newbie question, when looking at other template letters, what are these abbreviations?

"(a !!!8220;notice to hirer!!!8221;)"