Six year old ticket

youdontsay

Coupon-mad wrote: »

should be


That's a good first draft. Now you just need to add reference to the evidence and cases you will be relying on, e.g.:

- Excel v Lamoureux
- Excel v Smith (on appeal)

which are both shown as court transcripts in the Parking Prankster's case law. They help to make it clear even to a clueless Judge, that a keeper can't be held liable outwith Schedule 4 (and yours pre-dates that law).

Thank you for your continued support
Ive read the cases you suggest, Im just wondering how I present them in my witness statement? Would I add them as an extra item and simply include the links? Would they have the facility or take the time to access the actual case via the link? Or do I include it in its entirety by Copying and Pasting the whole content?

nosferatu1001

You have them as a specific page in your set of exhibits, same as everything else. Of course they wont follow links. The court barelyhas time to print everything out.

youdontsay

nosferatu1001 wrote: »

You have them as a specific page in your set of exhibits, same as everything else. Of course they wont follow links. The court barelyhas time to print everything out.

Thank you
So I would print them out and take with me in a file? I thought this would be the case, that was my reason for querying.
Ive never been to any kind of court before so have no idea of the process whatsoever, probably why Im needing to ask so many seemingly stupid questions!
These two cases focus on the need for the claimant to recognise that, at the time of the alleged offence, the person liable was the driver and not the keeper I believe
So my court file would consist of a printed copy of my WS when completed, and the transcript of the two cases as stated above? Would I need anything else?
Ive taken some photographs of the signage but I dont know what would be considered to be 'too small' What I did notice was that the sign was placed in front of dense foliage, which could mean that during these Summer months, wording may be obliterated by leaves. It might be worth another look today and take some new photographs.
On the other hand, it may be a waste of time seeing that my focus will be on the keeper/driver issue.

nosferatu1001

You habd deliver to the court a lovely folder with everything neatly referenced, with dividers etc.

Have you gone back to post 2 of the newbies thread? I know the tempation is to ask first, but please try to look there instead!

YOu WS should support every element of your defence. So if ni your defence you say the signs are crap, then of course you show theyre crap by showing photos, if you can...

youdontsay

nosferatu1001 wrote: »

You habd deliver to the court a lovely folder with everything neatly referenced, with dividers etc.

Have you gone back to post 2 of the newbies thread? I know the tempation is to ask first, but please try to look there instead!

YOu WS should support every element of your defence. So if ni your defence you say the signs are crap, then of course you show theyre crap by showing photos, if you can...

Thank you
I go to the #2 post quite often but time wouldnt allow possibly anyone to read everything there And Im unsure which applies to me until Ive read them.
I feel so out of my depth doing this, its very alien to me, my life couldnt be further removed from doing this sort of thing. And not saying this for sympathy, as Im sure lots of people feel the same, its no worse for me than anyone else. I just prefer to be honest about how I feel.
If I could pay up and it was an option I would. Lets face it, I/we have spent enough hours on this that, if we put in that amount of extra hours at work, we could pay the fine possibly a few times over.
But thats not the point. Im guessing that until forums like this one were set up to help this process for people to fight their corner and have their day in court, that they were getting away with their money-making scam.
So its not an option, it has to be done

nosferatu1001

Indeed, but it needs to be read and read properly. What applies to you is the part around Witness Statements. Its a recounting of facts YOU know, so if you know the signs are bad - and this was covered in your defence! - then you say so and support it with photos etc.

Coupon-mad

my life couldnt be further removed from doing this sort of thing.

Nor mine, I work in a school. And Umkomaas lives in another Country. And neither of us have been to court about anything, but we (and all the other regulars) fight this scam every day for people... because as you rightly say, ''it has to be done''.

The Trade Bodies should be ashamed of the race to the bottom that has been allowed to happen.

I like your style and you are doing fine. Most posters are exactly like you and they win!

:T

youdontsay

Ive made a few alterations to the original draft, how does this look now?
I, ****************** of **************, *********, ***********, **** *** am the defendant in this case.


1. The facts in this statement come from my personal knowledge. Where they are not within my own knowledge there are true to the best of my information and belief

2. I am not liable to the Claimant for the sum claimed, or any amount at all and this is my Witness Statement in support of my defence as already filed.

3. I assert that I am the registered keeper of the vehicle in question in this case. I was not the driver.

4. The alleged offence occurred some six years ago. The first correspondence received by myself was just 2 weeks prior to the six year deadline for the Claimant to pursue this matter legally. There is an occasional issue with mail, due to a nearby residence being named practically identically to my own address. But I fail to believe that all the required paperwork during a six year period would have gone astray For this reason I believe that the Claimant has not complied with the necessary procedures.

5. On receiving the first correspondence from the Claimant, and prior to seeking expert advice, I telephoned BW Legal as instructed in their letter. I was then incorrectly coerced into filling out the AOS in a very amateur fashion. After receiving much better advice, I followed up by writing an amendment to the AOS and informing BW Legal by email and by telephone that this was the case and to ignore the original AOS. However, this was not followed through, even though I made communication several times and was assured that the original AOS would be ignored. Which could severely have disadvantaged me in my case. I believe that this was probably intentional by BW Legal

6. The claimant submits that the defendant is the responsible person in charge of the vehicle which has incurred the charges referred to This is denied as the Claimant was not there and has no knowledge of who was driving on any occasion. However, I do have knowledge and attest that I was not the driver.

7. The reason for my certainty that I was not the driver is that the car park in question has long since held the reputation of being an area where rogue car park operators do their business. Numerous people I know have fallen foul in this place, my own pastor and my late father-in-law to name just two. For this reason, the car park, once well used, resembles something of a ghost town. A very large area in a prime position to shops, will typically see 6 or 7 cars parked there, obviously by some people who have found a way round this rogue system, or who dont mind paying exorbitant sums of money to the Claimant. I have not used this car park myself for over 10 years and find myself walking long distances on my rare visits to this town, rather than go through the tedious, stressful and unfair process of proving innocence following the claim of being guilty.

8 Even though photographic evidence has been requested from the Claimant, none has been provided to date


9 In order to demonstrate that the driver(s) on these occasions failed to pay & display, the Claimant should have evidenced that, of course. Where are the photos of the dashboard showing no P&D ticket displayed? Failing that, as this is an ANPR site, where are the system records showing no payment made on these days? They have not even supplied lists of the VRNs input by drivers on those days, e.g. showing a mismatched payment, wrong VRN or no entry at all that corresponds with this vehicle.


10 I also point out to the presiding Judge that the Claimant has not supplied any evidence at all that the alleged contraventions even occurred. ANPR camera photos merely show a vehicle arriving and leaving. All vehicles will have been recorded thus (assuming their VRNs were captured). All vehicles, including those whose drivers paid and displayed.



11 I am an unrepresented consumer who has never attended the County Court before and was not even the driver so I have no knowledge of the events, dates, or signage terms. I strongly object to this Claimant at the eleventh hour pursuing me as having committed a parking offence


12 This alleged parking event pre-dates the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4 -

9(1)A notice which is to be relied on as a notice to keeper for the purposes of paragraph 6(1)(b) is given in accordance with this paragraph if the following requirements are met.
(2)The notice must—
(a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;
(b)inform the keeper that the driver is required to pay parking charges in respect of the specified period of parking and that the parking charges have not been paid in full;
(c)describe the parking charges due from the driver as at the end of that period, the circumstances in which the requirement to pay them arose (including the means by which the requirement was brought to the attention of drivers) and the other facts that made them payable;
(d)specify the total amount of those parking charges that are unpaid, as at a time which is—
(i)specified in the notice; and
(ii)no later than the end of the day before the day on which the notice is either sent by post or, as the case may be, handed to or left at a current address for service for the keeper (see sub-paragraph (4));
(e)state that the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and invite the keeper—
(i)to pay the unpaid parking charges; or
(ii)if the keeper was not the driver of the vehicle, to notify the creditor of the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and to pass the notice on to the driver;
(f)warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given—
(i)the amount of the unpaid parking charges specified under paragraph (d) has not been paid in full, and
(ii)the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver,
the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid;
(g)inform the keeper of any discount offered for prompt payment and the arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints that are available;
(h)identify the creditor and specify how and to whom payment or notification to the creditor may be made;
(i)specify the date on which the notice is sent (where it is sent by post) or given (in any other case).


3)The notice must relate only to a single period of parking specified under sub-paragraph (2)(a) (but this does not prevent the giving of separate notices which each specify different parts of a single period of parking).
(4)The notice must be given by—
(a)handing it to the keeper, or leaving it at a current address for service for the keeper, within the relevant period; or
(b)sending it by post to a current address for service for the keeper so that it is delivered to that address within the relevant period.
(5)The relevant period for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4) is the period of 14 days beginning with the day after that on which the specified period of parking ended.
(6)A notice sent by post is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to have been delivered (and so “given” for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4)) on the second working day after the day on which it is posted; and for this purpose “working day” means any day other than a Saturday, Sunday or a public holiday in England and Wales.
(7)When the notice is given it must be accompanied by any evidence prescribed under paragraph 10.
(8)In sub-paragraph (2)(g) the reference to arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints includes—
(a)any procedures offered by the creditor for dealing informally with representations by the keeper about the notice or any matter contained in it; and
(b)any arrangements under which disputes or complaints (however described) may be referred by the keeper to independent adjudication or arbitration

Please note the following reference from original case Excel x Lamoureux
CS044 Excel v Lamoureux C3DP56Q5 judgment (No keeper liability)

DJ Skalskyj-Reynolds judgment explains that there is no liability if the keeper is not the driver and POFA is not used.
Also Excel Parking Services v Smith (appeal) Stockport, 08/06/2017 C0DP9C4E and C1DP0C8E. App


Mr Smith was the keeper, but not the driver on the day.

DDJ Cowell found that CPS vs AJH Films allowed the transfer of liability from Driver to Registered Keeper as the driver was the keeper's agent. However, following the judgment Mr Smith expressed surprise as he had previously had an identical claim dismissed where CPS v AJH Films was found not to apply.

DDJ Cowell acknowledged that had this been known to her before then the Judgment may well have been different. She gave permission to appeal both claims.

Appeal

On appeal it was found that CPS v AJH Films is only applicable in an employee/employer situation. This was not such a situation.

The appeal was upheld.




13. Conclusion – no evidence of contravention and the Particulars lack any basis for a claim

14. The Court is invited to dismiss this Claim, and to allow my wasted costs which will be submitted separately and in a timely manner, depending upon whether a hearing takes place. I firmly believe that to pursue me as registered keeper when the Claimant admits they have no such right, and to submit such incoherent particulars and lacking ‘evidence’ is wholly unreasonable and vexatious.

Coupon-mad

None of this is needed at all, simply because the event pre-dates the law:

9(1)A notice which is to be relied on as a notice to keeper for the purposes of paragraph 6(1)(b) is given in accordance with this paragraph if the following requirements are met.
(2)The notice must!!!8212;
(a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;
(b)inform the keeper that the driver is required to pay parking charges in respect of the specified period of parking and that the parking charges have not been paid in full;
(c)describe the parking charges due from the driver as at the end of that period, the circumstances in which the requirement to pay them arose (including the means by which the requirement was brought to the attention of drivers) and the other facts that made them payable;
(d)specify the total amount of those parking charges that are unpaid, as at a time which is!!!8212;
(i)specified in the notice; and
(ii)no later than the end of the day before the day on which the notice is either sent by post or, as the case may be, handed to or left at a current address for service for the keeper (see sub-paragraph (4));
(e)state that the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and invite the keeper!!!8212;
(i)to pay the unpaid parking charges; or
(ii)if the keeper was not the driver of the vehicle, to notify the creditor of the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and to pass the notice on to the driver;
(f)warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given!!!8212;
(i)the amount of the unpaid parking charges specified under paragraph (d) has not been paid in full, and
(ii)the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver,
the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid;
(g)inform the keeper of any discount offered for prompt payment and the arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints that are available;
(h)identify the creditor and specify how and to whom payment or notification to the creditor may be made;
(i)specify the date on which the notice is sent (where it is sent by post) or given (in any other case).


3)The notice must relate only to a single period of parking specified under sub-paragraph (2)(a) (but this does not prevent the giving of separate notices which each specify different parts of a single period of parking).
(4)The notice must be given by!!!8212;
(a)handing it to the keeper, or leaving it at a current address for service for the keeper, within the relevant period; or
(b)sending it by post to a current address for service for the keeper so that it is delivered to that address within the relevant period.
(5)The relevant period for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4) is the period of 14 days beginning with the day after that on which the specified period of parking ended.
(6)A notice sent by post is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to have been delivered (and so !!!8220;given!!!8221; for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4)) on the second working day after the day on which it is posted; and for this purpose !!!8220;working day!!!8221; means any day other than a Saturday, Sunday or a public holiday in England and Wales.
(7)When the notice is given it must be accompanied by any evidence prescribed under paragraph 10.
(8)In sub-paragraph (2)(g) the reference to arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints includes!!!8212;
(a)any procedures offered by the creditor for dealing informally with representations by the keeper about the notice or any matter contained in it; and
(b)any arrangements under which disputes or complaints (however described) may be referred by the keeper to independent adjudication or arbitration

youdontsay

Coupon-mad wrote: »

None of this is needed at all, simply because the event pre-dates the law:

So I can just delete that from WS? Is the rest of it OK? And is it ready to submit in your opinion? Many thanks for all your help

In terms of the transcripts Excel x Lamoureux and Excel x Smith, do I copy and paste the whole of them and enter into my WS?