Returning a radiator CCR - return by normal post?

DreamweaverB

Following on from the thread titled If a company delivers, are they obliged to collect?.

unholyangel wrote: »

Because the goods can't be returned by normal post,

Does anyone know the legal definition of "normal post"?

I ordered and had delivered a central heating radiator but have changed my mind about the size and now want a larger one. Similar to the OP in that thread I am happy to pay reasonable return costs and in my case want to order a more expensive radiator from them. However for the following reasons I also want some ammunition in case I have a fight on my hands:

1. It's been 4 days and counting and the returns dept have still not replied despite chasing by me and their own Customer Services department.
2. Their T&Cs state non-faulty returns will be subject to a 25% restocking fee which is of course illegal.
3. Their T&Cs do not state the cost of returning a radiator.

So the checking question is... can a 30kg 700mm x 1000mm radiator normally be returned by 'post?'

Fosterdog

How did it arrive? Did it need a specialist service for delivery or was it just a courier?

Who is the retailer? Are their T&Cs relating to their own returns policy rather than your rights under CCRs? They can have both, as long as they give you the information required by law for CCR cancellations they can also have their own additional returns policy that they can attach whatever terms they want to, as long as they abide by CCRs for anyone wishing to cancel under them as well.

eddddy

Just to make sure... does the company sell to consumers or only to the trade?

If you ordered it from a company that states that it only does trade sales, by ordering, you probably agreed that you are a trader/business. So consumer protection laws might not apply.

bris

Whats the company, we can't guess a returns policy to see whether it abides by the CCR's or not.


In general yes a restocking fee is illegal but there is a point made that needs answered and in general yes it's your responsibility to get the radiator back to them if their T&C's state this.

unholyangel

I would take it to mean that it can't be sent via standard post with post office/royal mail. The implementing guidance makes reference to furniture and bulky items - which imo gives the impression that it refers to items that can't be sent by standard delivery rather than items that can't be sent at all.

I don't believe its spelled out anywhere in the legislation though and a radiator is less clear cut than the gravel in the linked example.

macman

Parcelforce will accept large parcels up to a 30kg limit, 3m length and depth combined. Of course you can't just stick brown paper and a stamp on it and send by 'standard mail,. Our postie is a muscular chap, but even he would struggle with a 30kg rad. Not to mention the letterbox.

DreamweaverB

Fosterdog wrote: »

How did it arrive? Did it need a specialist service for delivery or was it just a courier?

No idea whether a specialist service. It wasn't one of our normal couriers, the van only seemed to contain radiators and was a much bigger van than, for example, our normal Hermes and Royal Mail vans. The website and correspondence doesn't name the courier at any point.

Fosterdog wrote: »

Are their T&Cs relating to their own returns policy rather than your rights under CCRs?

Their T&Cs are their interpretation of the CCR. "Cancellation rights Under the Distance Selling Regulations you have the legal right to cancel your order within seven days" followed by "To exercise your right of cancellation you must give written notice by post, email or fax, giving details of goods ordered." followed by "A re-stocking charge of 25% will be applied to all non-faulty items that wish to be returned."

Heat and Plumb T&Cs

So obviously their T&Cs are both out of date and contain illegal and unenforceable terms.

eddddy wrote: »

Just to make sure... does the company sell to consumers or only to the trade?

To both, all prices are inclusive of VAT and there is a specific section on their site for trade customers (I'm a consumer and ordered via the standard consumer site.)

hollydays

A little googling before ordering goods online next time?

https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/www.rkbathrooms.co.uk

Eg
!!!8220;Pioneer bathrooms limited, purity bathrooms limited, with various website and company name derivatives, are all basically the same, with the same address - 9 Dennis Lane.
Heatandplumb.com ltd was a business that went into liquidation. The directors of this company appears to have bought the domain to trade on previous good reviews.
I am in the process of building up a profile on this company and everyone that works there, to present to the relevant authorities. My own experience has been an appalling one with a damaged item delivered some 4 weeks ago and the refusal of a refund until it's picked up, but like others have said, they don't honour!!!8221;



*see also Pegasus kitchens and bathrooms limited

prizma windows limited in Middlesex
https://suite.endole.co.uk/insight/people/6026113-jeetendra-jadavji-halai
https://suite.endole.co.uk/insight/people/14808858-mr-jadavji-halai

DreamweaverB

macman wrote: »

Parcelforce will accept large parcels up to a 30kg limit, 3m length and depth combined.

Thanks, I have discovered the radiator is well over 30kg and the Parcelforce web site confirms this is too heavy for them to handle.

Below is the supplier's complete Cancellation/Returns T&Cs which do not state the cost of returning goods as they should to abide by the CCR.

13. Cancellation rights

13.1 - Under the Distance Selling Regulations you have the legal right to cancel your order within seven days of receipt of your goods (with the exception of any made to order items). You do not need to give us any reason for cancelling your contract. However, you will need to notify us in writing, email or fax if you wish to cancel your contract.
13.2 - You cannot cancel your contract if you have taken any audio or video recording or computer software out of the sealed package in which it was delivered to you.
13.3 - If you have received the goods before you cancel your contract then [unless, under clause 13.2, for which you do not have a right to cancel] you must send the goods back to the address supplied by us at your own cost and risk. It is recommended you take out insurance on the goods against damage or loss.
13.4 - If you cancel your contract but we have already processed the goods for delivery you must not unpack the goods when they are received by you and you must send the goods back to the address supplied by us at your own cost and risk as soon as possible. It is recommended you take out insurance on the goods against damage or loss.
13.5 - Once you have notified us in writing, email or fax that you wish to return your goods, you can do it providing you pay the cost of returning them. You are highly recommended to insure the goods which you are returning. Once your goods have been received in a re-saleable condition we will process your refund the next working day. Please note, it can take at least 5 working days for the refund to show in your account.
13.6 - You will be re-credited for the costs incurred in returning faulty goods, or goods that do not comply with what was ordered.

14. Returns - [Download Returns Form]

14.1 - To exercise your right of cancellation you must give written notice by post, email or fax, giving details of goods ordered.
14.2 - All non-faulty items will incur a collection charge, dependant on the size and weight of the item. This charge must be paid prior to any collection being arranged.
14.3 - A re-stocking charge of 25% will be applied to all non-faulty items that wish to be returned.
14.4 - All goods returned to us must be in perfect condition with the product packaging undamaged. You have a statutory duty to restore those goods to us and, in the meantime, to keep them and take reasonable care of them. As such it is recommended you take out insurance on the goods against damage or loss.
14.5 - In the unlikely event that the item we supplied to you is faulty, we will meet the cost of the return, as long as the fault is acknowledged within 30 working days (see 10.9). We reserve the right to nominate a collection company for this.
14.6 - We will not accept any returns after 14 days from the date of delivery.

usefulmale

DreamweaverB wrote: »

Below is the supplier's complete Cancellation/Returns T&Cs which do not state the cost of returning goods as they should to abide by the CCR.

How can the supplier state the cost of returning everything they sell?

DreamweaverB wrote: »

I ordered and had delivered a central heating radiator but have changed my mind about the size and now want a larger one. Similar to the OP in that thread I am happy to pay reasonable return costs and in my case want to order a more expensive radiator from them

Why don't you phone the company to order the radiator you do want, and ask, very nicely, if the courier can collect the one you ordered in error when they deliver your new one?

DreamweaverB

usefulmale wrote: »

How can the supplier state the cost of returning everything they sell?

Because the law says they have to if they want the customer to pay for returns that cannot be posted?

The Consumer Contracts Regulations 2013

The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013
PART 2 - Information requirements
CHAPTER 1 - Provision of information

13.—(5) If the trader has not complied with paragraph (1) in respect of paragraph (g), (h) or (m) of Schedule 2, the consumer is not to bear the charges or costs referred to in those paragraphs.

PART 3 - Right to cancel

35.—(5) The consumer must bear the direct cost of returning goods under paragraph (2), unless—

(b)the trader failed to provide the consumer with the information about the consumer bearing those costs, required by paragraph (m) of Schedule 2, in accordance with Part 2.

SCHEDULE 2 - Information relating to distance and off-premises contracts

(m)where applicable, that the consumer will have to bear the cost of returning the goods in case of cancellation and, for distance contracts, if the goods, by their nature, cannot normally be returned by post, the cost of returning the goods;

usefulmale wrote: »

Why don't you phone the company to order the radiator you do want, and ask, very nicely, if the courier can collect the one you ordered in error when they deliver your new one?

I did ask them very nicely by email (twice) to do exactly that, their Returns dept still haven't responded. The only responses are from customer services saying the Returns Dept deal with this...