Horizon parking ANPR PCN help

Scared-of-Heights

Hello lovely MSE folks.

An acquaintance has received, by post, a PCN from Horizon Parking who appear to be a member of BPA. It’s ANPR, no windscreen ticket, just the PCN letter (which is treated as a NTK?). I've read the Newbie thread and am looking for a bit more advice / confirmation of the best next steps.

1. It seems the advice is to email the PPC (Horizon) using templated text for appeal, and then (expecting this to be rejected) to appeal to POPLA. Is that correct?

2. I would also like to understand what grounds for appeal might be – is it only around quality of signage, or is there anything else?

The PCN appears to comply with most of PoFA schedule 4, with the possible exception that it does not state whether or not a Notice To Driver was issued. Is that reasonable grounds for non-compliance with PoFa s.4?
It also does not (per s.4 para 9 (2) (c) ) state what the parking charge should have been at the end of the “parking period”… but I may be mis-interpreting that PoFA wording?
I am also not completely happy with the clarity of the images provided (timestamps not legible, bottom plate enlargement is blurry, etc).

I am not sure if I can / how to attach redacted images of the PCN letter here?

Any thoughts, suggestions etc welcome! Thanks.

Quentin

Everyone is politely asked to read up on this in the Newbies FAQ thread near the top of the forum before starting a new thread

You will have seen the initial step to take. Pointless posting to ask for confirmation. The FAQs are bang up to date

You will also see how to construct a popla appeal there

Redx

the pcn is the NTK, the postal Notice To Keeper

use the blue text template to appeal it as KEEPER (not as driver)

if they give the KEEPER the popla code , draft a popla appeal based on several legal arguments

post #1 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread has the first appeal

post #3 has examples of various POPLA appeals you can adapt, or find a recently approved popla appeal on here and adapt it accordingly

as stated above, that information is UP TO DATE, no need to clarify it , it just IS

use tinypic or dropbox to host images and add a dead URL by changing HTTP to hxxp

Scared-of-Heights

I have read the Newbie and FAQ thread. Allow me to re-state my request. I seek advice on how best to advise the recipient of this PCN.

Coupon-mad writes in the FAQ:

"Forget the 14 day 'discount' if you wish to appeal; that bribe is not for you. And we would say never pay a private parking charge - they are never justified and the entire industry is rotten, so fight back."


Never Justified? Never? Is that really the consensus of the experts on this forum?
That implies that no appeal will fail, yet we know that more than half do fail.
So, if the only appeal grounds are about inadequate signage, which seems quite subjective, I am trying to work out if I should advise them to appeal or not.

Thanks

Quentin

Why not direct them here so they can see for themseves and decide whether or not to accept the advice freely available

Redx

Scared-of-Heights wrote: »

I have read the Newbie and FAQ thread. Allow me to re-state my request. I seek advice on how best to advise the recipient of this PCN.

Coupon-mad writes in the FAQ:

"Forget the 14 day 'discount' if you wish to appeal; that bribe is not for you. And we would say never pay a private parking charge - they are never justified and the entire industry is rotten, so fight back."


Never Justified? Never? Is that really the consensus of the experts on this forum?
That implies that no appeal will fail, yet we know that more than half do fail.
So, if the only appeal grounds are about inadequate signage, which seems quite subjective, I am trying to work out if I should advise them to appeal or not.

Thanks

she also states that the aim is to get a POPLA code should the appeal fail

THE FIRST APPEAL TO THE PPC

What's the point of appealing and what happens next?

- if this is a BPA member parking firm, the point is to get a POPLA code if you do not get it cancelled

there are dozens if not hundreds of instances where the initial appeal works and people like HIGHVIEW and SMART PARKING scuttle off when they see it , because they recognise where it has come from

if the appeal fails , SO WHAT !! , the aim is to use the Ombudsman Service to use all your ammunition with and to get them to cancel it and cost the PPC money if they fail to withdraw voluntarily

we dont see many cases where the recipient is deserving of the pcn, its usually through signage failures or payment machine errors or ANPR errors or CoP failures like grace periods etc or possibly something else that could be trivial and de-minimis like parking over a white line , or stopping in the roadway or at a drop off point , or double dipping (2 short visits they merge into one long stay)

the advice is quite clear to the PCN recipient , appeal like I said using the blue text appeal, then see what transpires

a recipient is only "guilty" if a judge says so, in court , within 6 years

Coupon-mad

Never Justified? Never? Is that really the consensus of the experts on this forum?

Yes, it IS that bad, and it's why we come back here to assist people every day.

That implies that no appeal will fail,

No it doesn't. It implies what it says - none are justified. Doesn't imply anything about appeals winning or losing.

yet we know that more than half do fail.

Really? Generally across the board yes, but that's because the British Public appeal badly, don't research how to win, and just tell the honest story of what happened & almost certainly don't even read POPLA's info that mitigation can't be considered. Too many people fire off a doomed appeal. Of course they lose.

Doomed appeals drag down the overall POPLA figures, but you are not in those stats, you are in our stats. And on here, we win in the consistent region of 99% of POPLA appeals and court defences.

Did you check if the Horizon PCN's words match 9(2)f of Schedule 4? EXACTLY stating the right timeline and warning the registered keeper that they will be liable?

Scared-of-Heights

Thanks, Coupon-mad, for your thoughts. Your comments about the stats are noted and I take your point.

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Did you check if the Horizon PCN's words match 9(2)f of Schedule 4? EXACTLY stating the right timeline and warning the registered keeper that they will be liable?

POFA 9(2)f says:
(f) warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given—
(i) the amount of the unpaid parking charges specified under paragraph (d) has not been paid in full, and
(ii) the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver,
the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid;

The Horizon PCN says:
The Registered Keeper details of this vehicle have been requested from the DVLA… (etc).
If you were not the driver, please supply the full name and current address of the driver within 28 days of the date of this notice so that liability of the PCN may be transferred to the driver.
If after 28 days we have not received full payment, we have the right to recover the parking charge amount that remains unpaid from the driver of the vehicle and further costs may be incurred.

So it’s not exactly the same wording in exactly the same order, but would you say that it is good enough to satisfy the POFA requirements for transferring liability to the keeper?

KeithP

You tell us the Horizon PCN says:

If after 28 days we have not received full payment, we have the right to recover the parking charge amount that remains unpaid from the driver of the vehicle and further costs may be incurred.

If it really does say that, then they have failed miserably to transfer liability to the keeper.

There is not even a suggestion there that if they don't know who the driver is they can recover money from the keeper.

It should also be noted that their "further costs may be incurred" suggestion also falls foul of PoFA.
No costs can be added simply because the keeper has become liable.

As long as the driver isn't identified, this is an easy win for the keeper.

Scared-of-Heights

KeithP – many thanks for your comments. Here’s the full text of the PCN letter.

“We have issued Parking Charge Notice XXX as this vehicle has breached the terms and conditions at XXX that Horizon Parking (The Creditor) were authorised to manage on 9th January 2018. This Parking Charge Notice has been issue for: Failure to Pay / Validate for the Duration of Stay.

The terms and conditions of parking on this private land are clearly set out on signage within the car park. By choosing to park within this car park, the driver is bound to these terms and conditions and is liable to pay a charge if the terms and conditions are breached.

A prompt payment discounted amount of £40.00 applies if this Parking Charge Notice is paid within 14 days of issue. If the full amount is not paid within this time, the full value of £80.00 will be due.

The Registered Keeper details of this vehicle have been requested from the DVLA through the reasonable cause criteria of pursuing an outstanding Parking Charge Notice. If you were not the keeper of the vehicle at the time it was parked or if the vehicle was stolen prior to the beginning of the period of parking which si the subject of this Notice, please let us know within 28 days of the date of this notice. If you were not the driver, please supply the full name and current serviceable postal address of the driver within 28 days of the date of this notice so that liability of the Parking Charge Notice may be transferred to the driver.

We now request this amount is paid using one of the payment methods described overleaf. If after 28 days we have not received full payment, we have the right to recover the parking charge amount that remains unpaid from the driver of the vehicle and further costs may be incurred.”

KeithP - is your view still the same?

Coupon-mad – have you recently changed the suggested template appeal text for the initial appeal to the PPC in your Newbie/FAQ thread? What prompted the change?

The_Deep

The whole business is a scam, believe nothing PPCs tell you. ,