Euro Car Park (ECP) PCN Matalan POPLA Appeal

barafear799

Fruitcake wrote: »

Not the landowner
No standing to issue charges in their own name
Non POFA complaint NTK
Inadequate signage
Not the person who should be pursued


Use all the template points you can find in post 3 of the NEWBIES that are relevant.

From reading other examples, I got confused as to whether the NTK was compliant or not? And how connected it was to "not person to be pursued".
So I left out the NTK bit.
I have now posted my draft if you have time please.
Thanks

Coupon-mad

OK, that's good and unless the PCN was received outside of day 15 afterwards, I would not even try to argue about the NTK, which POPLA do consider to be compliant.

Personally, I would make signage point #1.

I would strongly recommend you remove the entrance sign image, as that shows the driver could/should have seen that it was 'pay and display' when driving in. So remove it, IMHO.

I would also remove your first picture of the sign on the wall, because you can read the £85 on it. Alternatively, re-size it to make it half the size so the £85 is unreadable, then use it, saying how far away it is even for a pedestrian to read. Seriously, try that first!

As for the other pics, I like them. I would add more wording about them, as a narrative pointing out to the Assessor the obvious things that might just tip the balance, e.g:

''this sign shows that it is placed on a remote wall of the shop, round the side, next to a walkway, neither near parked cars nor near the entrance doors, nor anywhere near where the car dropped off and drove round, then collected a passenger shopper.''

''this sign is inexplicably placed in the middle of a sharp bush at the perimeter of the site in a landscaped area, and nowhere near where the car dropped off and drove''.

I would add a point #2 (putting ECP on the spot to provide evidence they might not have), something like this, pushing the others down to 3 and 4:

2. No evidence of where the car was parked, if parked at all during the times shown
The operator has not shown where the car was parked, if it was parked in the enforcement area of parking bays at all, which is denied. In fact, the driver entered to drop off a passenger, drove round and waited in an area believed to be outside this operative's enforcement boundary, because there were no signs at all, but also no markings to disallow dropping off and collecting items or passengers.

The driver is adamant they entered into no contract, and the PPC is put to strict proof as to where the signs were placed in the whole site, on the material date, and that dropping off areas and other unmarked corner and side areas actually form part of the authorised site for ticketing. The driver did not cause an obstruction, and was not in the main car park taking up any parking bay at any time, and since the PCN was not issued for obstruction or 'out of bay parking' there is no justification for this unexpected dropping off charge, on any level (neither as an agreed contract, nor breach of contract).

It is contended that any cars - and of course taxis - dropping off and collecting shoppers enter into no parking contract, unless they also then go and park in the car park. This contention is supported by the fact that the shop provides unmarked (unrestricted) side areas for such activity, as well as for their own lorries to unload. The driver firmly believes they were in an unmarked area, that there were no signs in that place implying a contract, nor was it a no-stopping zone, and the operator has provided no evidence to the contrary.

This is a retail car park, and there are areas to the side and back of the shopping units and there is nothing to communicate any 'contract' or dropping off rules in those areas, that could possibly give rise to a driver believing they were expected to pay and display when not taking up a parking bay. There were not even any signs to expect a driver to seek out, in the area where the driver stopped and drove round, then picked up a passenger. The operator must provide a site plan, contemporaneously-dated, showing all areas of this retail park and all signs, and defining the boundaries of enforcement and all entrances, including any unmarked areas. The operator will not be able to disprove this with stock photos taken at the parking bays because that is not where the car was dropping off.

barafear799

Many thanks for your feedback.
The entry sign was included in ECP's rejection letter of my original appeal.
I felt it was relevant because it didn't specifically show the penalty charge.
But happy to remove.
Are you suggesting arguing it was not seen at all (being on the passenger side)

Coupon-mad

Yes, you could say so, but I would not provide a picture of it yourself.

barafear799

I've had another look at the car park to see if there were any "drop off points" - once you enter into the car park - it's all spaces.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.9008398,-0.2030478,3a,75y,172.12h,46.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdUravQIVUKcJmOO8jqrNag!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

So might have to adapt your words - or leave out?

I did mention the possibility of finding a space or dropping off and waiting for passenger within my "signage" paragraph.

Albeit the time duration is 40 mins - so stretching any GP - although Christmas rush.....

barafear799

Any suggestions on whether I should include a section on "dropping off" and not actually parking - given there are very few areas of the car park that would not be construed as "chargeable" parking spaces (see Google Maps if time permits).

I would just like to reiterate my massive thanks to the experts on this forum.

barafear799

Sorry - I don't mean to keep replying to my own thread.
When I upload my PDF document to Popla - do I need to include my Popla Ref no (10 digits) or just the original PCN number from ECP?

Thank you.

nosferatu1001

Popla ref, of course. They’re not going to understand any other ref.

Coupon-mad

Don't bin my words, they were written with me knowing nothing about the site, but who cares?

The point of my words is to force ECP to produce some evidence they do not have. Use the wording as is. There must be space for lorries to unload round the side, etc., and this is then for ECP to disprove.

It's about making your POPLA appeal long, and hard to contest.

They will NOT be able to show where your car was stopped, because they don't have CCTV.

barafear799

In terms of the Popla ref, I meant do I need to actually include it on my PDF? Clearly when uploading, I entered the popla code. I did not bin your words CM. I am very very grateful. Unfortunately, I had to upload earlier tonight due to time limit and being unable to access a computer until Monday. I'll let you know the outcome. Once again thanks for all your valuable help.