Two freeholds on same property

rwcwilson

Hi,

Bit of an odd one and I can't seem to find the answer anywhere. We are looking at a 'freehold' property for sale in Manchester. It's marketed as freehold. However, the owners did mention that the garden was leasehold when we viewed it, which I understand is relatively common. They say they recently paid to extend the lease, which they said they did last year for £6, though I think they are getting confused with the ground rent, which on the title documents is £6 per annum. They said they haven't looked into purchasing the leasehold.

I've looked at the documentation on the land registry. So there are two freeholds on the property. One is owned by a company in London and one by the owner. What I think is odd (but perhaps this is just my inexperience showing) is that the freehold own by the company encompasses 8 properties and a slither of one further property. The house in questions is positioned at the end of the line of properties, bar the slither that is the last house.The bounderies include all the of the house and garden. The other freehold, owned by the seller also encompasses the house and garden, i.e. everything within the fenced boudaries.

So my questions are:
1) how can both parties own the land and house
2) can the freeholds be merged/the company held one be removed without being purchased
3) If it does need to be purchased will this likely be a large sum

Many thanks

da_rule

Just to clear up a point, have you obtained the title plans for both freehold properties? If so, are you saying that both plans (to some extent) have the house and garden within the red edging?

G_M

rwcwilson wrote: »

.... there are two freeholds on the property.
Unikely. Or an error with the Land Registry which will need rectifying before you buy.

One is owned by a company in London and one by the owner.

....the freehold own by the company encompasses 8 properties and a slither of one further property.
What 'slither'? Part of the house itself? Part of the garden? Who wns the rest of the freehld of this 9th property?

The house in questions is positioned at the end of the line of properties, bar the slither that is the last house.
Is 'your' house one of the 8 included within the company's freehold?
How have you checked? via the address? And/or va the title Plan?
What does 'bar the slither' mean?

The bounderies include all the of the house and garden.
The boundaries of what? The freehold that icludes 8 properties? There should be only one boundary around the freehold.

The other freehold, owned by the seller also encompasses the house and garden, i.e. everything within the fenced boudaries.


So my questions are:
1) how can both parties own the land and house Only by one of them owning the freehold and the other owning a lease.
2) can the freeholds be merged/the company held one be removed without being purchased Yes. If that is what the freeholders agree.
3) If it does need to be purchased will this likely be a large sum
As the set-up is so unclear it is impossible to answer

Many thanks

Are you sure
* you are looking at Land registry Titles?
* you are looking at the Plans to each Title?
* you are not looking at, for example, a developer's Plan?

If LR Titles and Plans
* are you sure they are both freehold (not leashold)?

If so, it appears there is an error. There cannot be two overlapping freehold Titles for the same land.

If so, the seller will need to resolve.

If you are doing the conveyancing yourself - time to stop.
If not, time to visit your conveyancer, sit down face to face, and seek an explanation.

rwcwilson

da_rule wrote: »

Just to clear up a point, have you obtained the title plans for both freehold properties? If so, are you saying that both plans (to some extent) have the house and garden within the red edging?

Yes I have bought the title registry and plans. On the plan it has the boundaries for the company owned freehold which includes all the properties and the house in question. The red edging goes all the way around the property and includes the house and grounds.

G_M wrote: »

Are you sure
* you are looking at Land registry Titles?
* you are looking at the Plans to each Title?
* you are not looking at, for example, a developer's Plan?

If LR Titles and Plans
* are you sure they are both freehold (not leashold)?

If so, it appears there is an error. There cannot be two overlapping freehold Titles for the same land.

If so, the seller will need to resolve.

If you are doing the conveyancing yourself - time to stop.
If not, time to visit your conveyancer, sit down face to face, and seek an explanation.

1. The 'slither' encompasses about a third of the neighbouring house's grounds but does not include any of the house. So its a third of the back garden, side passage and front garden.
2. Yes the property is included in the plan for 8 properties. It is the one next to the slither. I'm not sure who owns the rest of the land with the slither but I assume the current owner.
3. Sorry its difficult to describe whithout the picture. The plan for the freehold owned by the company which includes the 8 properties and the 'slither' is a rectangular red line that goes round all the properties, including the grounds and houses (it is not sub divided just one big rectangle)


As above, yes I have purchased the title registry and plans from the land registry.

We will have a solicitor look into if we decide to make an offer but just wondering whether it would be a bargening chip to put in a lower offer, or is is better for the current owners to sort out before buying.

G_M

rwcwilson wrote: »

.......but just wondering whether it would be a bargening chip to put in a lower offer, or is is better for the current owners to sort out before buying.

:rotfl:

Are you paying cash? If not, your mortgage lendr is likely to run a mile.

If paying cash, by all means bargain, and hope that you end up owning the property for whatever discounted price you manage to get.

Seriously, If there is genuinely a conflict about the freehold ownership of the property, do not buy it till that conflict is resolved.

I note you did not respond to all my Qs above, eg is one Title leasehold?

ps - one further thought. Do not use a cheap online conveyancer. Fnd a local solicitor you can visit easily.

rwcwilson

G_M wrote: »

:rotfl:

Are you paying cash? If not, your mortgage lendr is likely to run a mile.

If paying cash, by all means bargain, and hope that you end up owning the property for whatever discounted price you manage to get.

Seriously, If there is genuinely a conflict about the freehold ownership of the property, do not buy it till that conflict is resolved.

I note you did not respond to all my Qs above, eg is one Title leasehold?

That is very true, no we are buying with a mortgage.

They are both freeholds, i.e. when you search for the property two freeholds are listed.

G_M

Another move would be to call the Land Registry helpline on Monday. It sounds like an error. Whether it is a LR admin error, and/or whether it will result in a dispute between the two registered owners, who knows?

rwcwilson

Many thanks, I'll call them and update with the result

rwcwilson

So I've looked at the title plans in closer detail. So on the current owners freehold there the £6 is a rentcharge that was created in 1934 (it was initially £45 in 1924 but reduced after further conveyances). It also says that it contains covenants, not sure if that is a standard statement or if its because there are some more unusual covenants on the deed.

The freehold owned by the company was created in 1962 and also refers to a rentcharge of £45 charged on the included land. Is this freehold therefore just the right to claim the rentcharge? Or is it more complex than that? Because I understand the rentcharges can now be bought out.

Just wanted to see if that clears it up at all, I'll still be ringing the land registry tomorrow.

ThePants999

PSA: the word y'all want is "sliver", unless a snake is somehow involved.

rwcwilson

So I asked one of my friends to review the title plans, as he is a solicitor who's done quite a lot of work in property law. It's not as dodgy as it first seems and I was largely right in my last post. So the 'freehold' owned by the company is not a freehold at all despite being listed as so on the land registry. It is a title plan giving the company the right to collect the rentcharge. Because it was created in 1962 its difficulult to establish whether it will expire in 2022 or 2037 as per the rentcharges act of 1977, the act is a bit unclear about whether its 60 years after the act or the start of charging the rentcharge. Regardless, its only a £6 charge per annum and if we do purchase the house we can pay a lump sum to buy out the owner and which will be minimal (i've seen some suggesting its usually about 16 times the annual rentcharge, so £96)

ThePants999 wrote: »

PSA: the word y'all want is "sliver", unless a snake is somehow involved.

Haha too true, though to be honest from what I can gather about the company in question they do sound like a bunch of snakes