Bitcoins/Cryptocurrency

ExremelyCautiousSocialist

fun4everyone wrote: »

Best performing asset of the last decade. You can dismiss, hate and be as ignorant all you want.

They think Bitcoin's rise is mostly just blind luck. Oblivious to a bunch of converging trends.

Malthusian

fun4everyone wrote: »

And you are ignorant about Bitcoin, but you already know that don't you?

Best performing asset of the last decade.

Wrong. OneCoins went from zero to twenty-odd euros, an increase of infinity percent.

"But very few people managed to cash out at that level because it was a Ponzi scheme, so that doesn't count." And? BitCoin is not a Ponzi scheme but it is a zero-sum game, and very few people were ever going to cash out at $20,000 either. It was trading at $20,000 because very few people were cashing out.

It is a mathematical impossibility for everyone to make massive returns in BitCoin. There isn't enough money on the table. For one person to make 20x returns, 20 people have to lose all their money, or 40 people have to lose half their money, or one person has to put in 20 times as much and lose it to the net-winner, or any equivalent combination.

BitCoin is a money game, not an asset. You may as well say that poker is the best performing asset class because some dude entered a Las Vegas tournament with $100 and won the $100,000 grand prize.

Malthusian

ExremelyCautiousSocialist wrote: »

Many people into crypto believe Bitcoin to be a productive step for society.

As most people into crypto want to get rich quick, Mandy Rice-Davies applies.



They can believe whatever they want to believe while they fantasise about riding their free Lambo to the moon bought by a net-loser's productive contribution to society.

ExremelyCautiousSocialist

People who buy 1 year and sell the next year at a profit or loss are not "into crypto".



Im talking about people actually "into crypto" who see it as a good thing for society.

ExremelyCautiousSocialist

Malthusian wrote: »

Wrong. OneCoins went from zero to twenty-odd euros, an increase of infinity percent.

Bitcoin went higher from zero.

Malthusian

ExremelyCautiousSocialist wrote: »

People who buy 1 year and sell the next year at a profit or loss are not "into crypto".

Well not any more. But they were when they thought it would get them rich quick.

Im talking about people actually "into crypto" who see it as a good thing for society.

When you talk about "many people" people will generally assume you're talking about the majority.

If we're actually talking about the very small minority of crypto holders who don't want to get rich quick, then that's fine, but that's not where you started the conversation.

Everyone sees themselves getting rich quick as a good thing for society. I work hard, why shouldn't I, blah blah I deserve it. Lottery winners see the jackpot as just reward for a hard life sweeping floors or looking after their children, regardless of the fact that their genuinely hard work had no influence on the tombola.

Bitcoin went higher from zero.

Fair point. In itself that makes it a dead heat between BitCoin and OneCoin, as infinity is exactly the same as infinity.

However the first tokens were not created from nothing but from the efforts of their creators - they had a time cost. BitCoin took more effort to create than OneCoin (BitCoin was a uniquely original invention and complex algorithm, whereas OneCoin was an SQL database) so I call victory for OneCoin.

ExremelyCautiousSocialist

Malthusian wrote: »

When you talk about "many people" people will generally assume you're talking about the majority.

If we're actually talking about the very small minority of crypto holders who don't want to get rich quick, then that's fine, but that's not where you started the conversation.

Well i said "Many people into crypto" and the context was referring to someone who mentions price is not necessarily just excited about getting rich quick. Maybe i could have been more clear.



But regardless you can make profit and do good in society. So i dont see the point in cherry picking my point anyway.

Malthusian

ExremelyCautiousSocialist wrote: »

But regardless you can make profit and do good in society.

Yes you can.

But not by joining money games which are zero-sum in terms of good done.

Money games typically have a net cost to society because those who lose money regret their losses more than the net-winners enjoy their profits. Diminishing marginal utility of money.

If someone was interested in cryptocurrency for its limited technological applications they would not make obsessive posts about price movements, and only when it is going up. They'd be talking about the technology instead.

fun4everyone

The technological advance of bitcoin is that the ledger and transaction history cannot be altered by anybody. No one has control over it and nobody can manipulate it for there own ends (I am not talking about price manipulation I am talking about fraud or sanctions on transactions/transaction history).

It is near impossible for a true competitor to be created because even the people that originally created Bitcoin are not here. Complete decentralisation and removal of fraud and manipulation has been achieved which is of massive benefit to the human race.

Simply having the most verifiable transaction ledger on the planet is huge. Nobody can alter it fraudulently. All transactions are publically visible and can be traced from beginning to end easily.

All of these other alt coins that pop up are mostly scams, the ones that do have interesting technology and are not outright scams suffer from the problem that the creators or others are still in charge. Thus, for one, there is a point of attack where they can be shut down (Bitcoin cannot be shutdown, it is a complete waste of money and time trying).

It is impossible to stop and the value it provides is incredible (and impossible to price, hence the wild fluctuations). This is a revolutionary technology that benefits every single person who is not controlling a current store of value, or benefiting from the manipulation of that control. It will end up as the worlds reserve because all the problems of the things that are currently used for that (Gold, the USD) are solved by bitcoin. It is above all political inteference, all controlling entitys, forgeries are impossible and it cannot be transferred in secret.

A competitor cannot be created as they cannot ever acheive the same level of decentralisation. The creators will always be here and it will always have been a get rich quick scheme for someone.

Hal Finney was a genius and his work will be taught in classrooms centuries down the line. The haters will soon realise what he has done for the world. IMO he was Satoshi.

ExremelyCautiousSocialist

Is the zero-sum/money games angle as relevant when you dealing with something still growing?