Advice request

jon_joe

Dear Coupon-Mad, Redx & Umkomaas,


I have now digested slightly more info than yesterday regarding the 2012 POFA.
The car was parked on 16th Oct.
PCN Issued on 21st Oct. It arrived on 1st Nov.


On the back there is an entire section "Protection of Freedoms Act" with the "you were warned that if after 29 days...This warning is given you under Paragraph 9(2)(f) of Schedule 4 of Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and is subject to our complying..."


On the next letter which is a PCN reminder dated 30th Oct, this info is not on the back. Instead it has about case law. It also has a longer first section and a bit about Beavis to frighten everybody.


So it sounds like I am in the poo and I do not have a golden ticket. Do they have to put in about POFA 2012 on all correspondence or just one time only?


I have to say there is a very lot of signage at the hospital but loads of small print that is simply unimaginable that anybody would read.
It's so much to digest. My head hurts.
Please advise.


Thank you so much for all your help.
You provide a little light in a dark world.
Gnite

Umkomaas

You need to work on the basis that they meet PoFA requirements to invoke Keeper liability and get on with researching other avenues to beat this.

But first you need to appeal the PCN by using the blue text appeal from the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #1, from which you will acquire a POPLA code, through which you have a better chance of getting this cancelled - but it will take effort on your part.

This is my ‘go to’ checklist for any eventual POPLA appeal. Some may not be relevant (like Keeper liability in this case) but others are avenues to delve into and argue - plenty of examples within the forum. The NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #3 covers appeals to POPLA. But in due course.

1. No keeper liability, including Notice to Keeper errors (PoFA 2012)
2. The operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver who was liable for the charge
3. No Contract to manage parking
4. No Locus Standi
5. Signage
6. Consumer Rights Act 2015
7. BPA Code of Practice breaches
8. Why Beavis doesn't apply in your parking event

Have you complained to PALS (Google it) at the hospital and ask them to intervene and get this cancelled?

jon_joe

I tried PALS but they don't actually do anything just direct you to parking manager who say try P.E. appeal. Its a vicious circle.


As far as I am aware this subject comes under "contract law" or "consumer law" etc ie when you drive in you are theoretically accepting the contract.


Normally a consumer has a cooling off period of 14 days to change their mind eg to return your vacuum cleaner to argos. I believe it's illegal for a seller to not have this provision to protect consumers.


Can we invoke this or has anyone invoked this argument? I realize it's a bit weird to ask, because you cannot unpark, having parked, but nevertheless the consumer should be protected.


what did you mean by these 2 terms:


3. No Contract to manage parking
4. No Locus Standi

Umkomaas

what did you mean by these 2 terms:


3. No Contract to manage parking
4. No Locus Standi

3. You want to question whether they have a contract with the landowner to manage parking - and you want to see a contemporaneous and unredacted version, not some templated witness statement.

4. Do they have standing in order issue parking charges and the authority to pursue them through the courts.

You are dealing with contract law, but consumer law might be invoked should there be ambiguity in the signage that puts the consumer at a disadvantage.

KeithP

jon_joe wrote: »

Normally a consumer has a cooling off period of 14 days to change their mind eg to return your vacuum cleaner to argos. I believe it's illegal for a seller to not have this provision to protect consumers.


Can we invoke this or has anyone invoked this argument? I realize it's a bit weird to ask, because you cannot unpark, having parked, but nevertheless the consumer should be protected.

Not sure where you get that idea from.

We are digressing a little here, but when buying in a shop the consumer has no statutory right to 'cool off' and return the goods.

The only right that consumer has is that agreed at the time of making the purchase. E.g. Argos actually allow 28 days I think for returns, but that is a contractual right and other sellers can, and will, have different ideas on that.

If there is no returns policy specified for a particular store that sale should be considered final - and to bring us back on topic, I don't know of any parking company that offers a 'returns policy'. .

Distance sales are different - where a 14 day cooling off period is in place,, but of course irrelevant to car parking.

Coupon-mad

Why don't you just copy another Hospital ParkingEye POPLA appeal, where the person hasn't argued 'no keeper liability' (which you can't/I've already explained, you would be wasting your breath?). Loads here this year, adapt one.

There are already POPLA template points written for you in the NEWBIES thread post #3.

So it appears to be some technical problem with pay by phone. We have the screen shot showing the text message sent to pay.

Was the text message showing as 'sent'? Does it show the day/time/location? Clearly that's your first appeal point.

jon_joe

Thank you,


What I really meant was that I thought there was a cooling off period in relation to contracts that we may enter into. I confused the issue by talking about consumer goods like Argos. Cooling off periods don't apply to consumables eg food or flowers. You can't return your meal to a restaurant. But I'm wondering about eg signing a contract with an estate agent or for a plan with utility company or mobile phone contract. There should be a 14 day cooling off for those contracts. But I'm just brainstorming really.

jon_joe

Coupon Mad,


2 weeks before the PCN the paybyphone number worked. 2 weeks after the PCN it was not working.
I suspect we fell into the "grey area" in the middle. 2 weeks later when we parked paybyphone sent us a failure message so we knew it wasn't working, but on the day of the PCN it seemed to be fine. So that is how we got "caught out".


Thanks

nosferatu1001

Cooling off periods rarely apply for anything on premises.

If you really want to check, look into the CRA. Youre likeluy confusing the old DSR (now part of the CRA2015) which does not apply to something simple such as a parking contract.