Another Section 21 question

Cissi

It looks like we've just been served one as well, and I'm wondering what our options are.

We've rented the house for the past 2 years. Initially we signed an assured shorthold tenancy agreement for 1 year (no S21 was served at the time). The landlord tried to get us to commit to 3 years, but we weren't willing to do this at the time. When the contract was up for renewal last year, we did not renew it, as there was a very long list of problems with the house that the landlord kept promising to sort out but never did - leaks, rotten door frames etc etc. Also, the new situation suited us, as we only have to give 1 months notice, while the LL has to give us 2, and we weren't sure at the time whether we'd be staying in the area. We were pretty confident that he'd want us to stay, as we've always paid our rent on time and look after the house well etc.

We now know that we'll be staying here, and foresee staying in the same house for the next couple of years. In the past few months, the LL finally agreed to get the necessary work done on the house (most of it has now been done), so we've agreed to renew the contract for another year. The agents (who don't manage the property, just the contracts) have sent us a Tenancy Renewal Agreement. This specifies 2 months notice for both parties(at our request).

At the bottom of the document , we are also given notice "that this agreement is intended to create an Assured Shorthold Tenancy as defined in Section 20 of the Housing Act 1988 and the provisions for the recovery of possession by the Landlord in Section 21 thereof apply accordingly and the Tenant upon signing this Agreement acknowledges that he has received such Notice".

My questions are:
1) Does this mean that the LL intends for us to move out at the end of the contract, or is this likely just a way of covering himself, "just in case"?
2) If so, why would he bother asking us to renew our contract, since he could just give us 2 months notice at any time as things stand?
3) The document refers to the "previous agreement". Is this even valid, since the original contract expired 13 months ago and was never renewed?
4) Is there anything that we can do to contest the S21? I'm guessing not, since he can ask us to leave at any time anyway, with 2 months notice, right?

One more piece of information that may be relevant: he has owned this house for 20 years or so, and rented it out for the past 12, occasionally occupying it himself between tenants. He also owns and rents out a number of other properties in the area.

Any input on what we should do would be appreciated, thanks!

surfcat

I don't get it. You say you have already allowed the AST to laspe into a periodic tennancy. Why bother signing up to a new AST (no doubt with a fee to the letting agent) when you already have a contract (the periodic) on the same terms as the previous AST? (The fact you don't actually have a paper contract doesn't matter).

Have you actually received a section 21? When is it dated?

Cissi

We haven't received it as a separate document if that's what you mean, only the paragraph at the bottom of the Tenancy Renewal Agreement, which I quoted above. Does this not count?

It's the agents that have been hassling us to renew the contract, presumably to get their fee from the LL, we're not paying them. They've probably been hassling the LL too, as we got a rather unpleasant call from him recently demanding to know why we hadn't signed it yet, "now that he's got all the work done". We decided that since we want to stay in the house we may as well sign another one to keep the LL happy, and avoid him suddenly deciding to give us notice now.

To be honest, I suspect that the LL never realised that we didn't renew the contract last year. The agents eventually gave up hassling us when we made it clear to them how many issues with the house were still outstanding. When the LL called recently he said something about having to make sure we sign the contract "before the current one runs out", indicating that he hasn't realised that it ran out a year ago!

What we're hoping is that the agents are just after their fee (and don't want the LL to know that they stuffed up last year), and that the paragraph about S21 at the bottom is just a standard clause - after all, this is the first time we've actually seen a Tenancy Renewal Agreement. I just wonder if this is fairly common, or if we should expect to have to leave when the contract is up. If so, we should probably refuse to sign it, and start looking for something else asap

clutton_2

Its my firm view that what you have quoted is not a section 21. there is a prescribed form that it has to be in, and it must contain a date that he wants you out by. So, he "thinks" he has given you a 21 - but he has not. I'd sign the lease, especailly now that the house has been repaired and enjoy it. if he were to ever try to get you out, i doubt it would hold up in court.

Cissi

Thank you clutton. I guess my first question should have been "have we been served a valid Section 21"! Does anyone think that it could be considered as such? Otherwise I guess we don't really need to worry!

I'm still confused about the bit about "if he was ever trying to get you out" though. As things stand right now, surely he only needs to give us 2 months notice without providing a reason? And even if both parties sign the renewal agreement, there is also a 2-month notice mutual break clause in there, so what's the difference?

(We want the 2-month notice as we don't want to be tied in, in case we need to relocate for reasons of DH's work - less likely now, but always a possibility - or in case a "perfect" house should come on the market at an affordable price (ha! ha!). As I said earlier, we don't expect that he will want us out, but this appearance of the S21 got me worried...)

clutton_2

this is a section 21 notice

HOUSING ACT 1988

Section 21 (1) (b)

Assured Shorthold Tenancy

Notice Requiring Possession:

To: TENANTS NAMES

Of 117 Green Street



From LANDLORD name and address





I give you Notice under section 21 of the Housing Act 1988 that I require possession of the dwelling house known as:
117 Green Street

After the (INSERT DATE)


Signed:

THE LANDLORD -

Dated:
[FONT=&quot]================================================================
[/FONT]NOTES

At or after the end of a fixed term of an Assured Shorthold Tenancy, a court is obliged to issue a Court Order. on request for possession if the Landlord or Landlord’s agent has correctly served a Notice in this form, at least two months prior to the possession requirement date.

Where there are joint Landlords, at least one of them must authorise or serve this notice if the tenancy is to be ended at or after the fixed term has expired.

The length of the notice (of this Notice) must be at least two months although the Notice may be served at any time.

The Landlord prior to the fixed term cannot terminate the agreement, unless the Tenant(s) has/have broken the terms of the agreement.

The Tenant prior to the fixed term cannot terminate the agreement, unless the Landlord has broken the terms of the agreement

What to do if this Notice is served on you

This Notice is the first step requiring you to give up possession of the Property. You should read it extremely carefully.

Your Landlord cannot make you leave your home without an order for possession issued by a court. By issuing this notice your Landlord is informing you that he intends to seek such a court order should it become necessary, if you are unwilling to vacate the Property on the agreed date.

If you are willing to give up possession of the Property without a court order, you should inform the person who issued and signed this notice as soon as possible and give the date saying when you are prepared to vacate the Property.

All conditions of the agreement still apply during this process and you are still legally obliged to pay the rent and all other financial obligations


If you need advice about this notice, and what you should do about it, take it immediately to Citizens Advice Bureau, a Housing Advice Centre, a Law Centre or a Solicitor.

clutton_2

Hope this helps all the tenants on here

Cissi

Thank you, that makes it pretty clear that we haven't been served one!

Lavendyr

An S21 cannot be served as part of the tenancy agreement, it can only be served after the tenancy agreement has been signed. So if it were supposed to be an S21, it's invalid anyway. Sounds like you have a bit of a numpty landlord who doesn't really know what he's doing - which in itself is not a great sign.

clutton_2

The professional landlords associations all say that the Section 21 can be served at any time after the tenancy has started.

If the tenant signs the first page of a number of pages pf AST and the last two pages are the S21 it is my view that it has been validly served.

There are many Views reported on here about the validity or otherwise of how to serve a Section 21 - we have yet to see a Case Law precedent quoted here to substantiate many of the arguments, including mine - so, do, please, if you are in legal trouble, contact Shelter or a solicitor for accurate advice.

BobProperty

clutton wrote: »

The professional landlords associations all say that the Section 21 can be served at any time after the tenancy has started.

If the tenant signs the first page of a number of pages pf AST and the last two pages are the S21 it is my view that it has been validly served.....

I put it to you that would only be true if they were already in the premises they were renting or already had hold of the keys by the time they were on the last two pages. So, possible but unlikely. (gets tin hat and hides in corner )