Where to buy physical Gold/Silver Bullion at Market price?

bery_451

EdGasketTheSecond said:

It's not so much a question of uk etf sites as I'm not sure there are any, but what etfs can be traded in GBP and thus avoid forex charges. So the gold and silver etfs traded in GBP with a lse listing are iShares and  WisdomTree. IShares have JP Morgan as the custodian while WisdomTree have Hsbc. WisdomTree appear to have larger funds than the iShares. There may be others but the funds of these two can be easily traded in GBP with minimal spread and no vat or stamp duty.  

iShares & WisdomTree both have precious metal vaults in UK where I can go there & exchange my ETF receipt/token for real Gold or Silver?

EdGasketTheSecond

bery_451 said:

EdGasketTheSecond said:

It's not so much a question of uk etf sites as I'm not sure there are any, but what etfs can be traded in GBP and thus avoid forex charges. So the gold and silver etfs traded in GBP with a lse listing are iShares and  WisdomTree. IShares have JP Morgan as the custodian while WisdomTree have Hsbc. WisdomTree appear to have larger funds than the iShares. There may be others but the funds of these two can be easily traded in GBP with minimal spread and no vat or stamp duty.  

iShares & WisdomTree both have precious metal vaults in UK where I can go there & exchange my ETF receipt/token for real Gold or Silver?

Not for iSHares and with Wisdom Tree you'd have to buy the GBSS (gold bullion) ETF; all the others are supposed to be backed by physical gold in vaults but you won't be able to redeem your shares for it. With GBSS you apparently can but need to contact the company to find out how. I expect there are some hefty charges for doing so and a high minimum amount so don't expect to get a sliver off a bullion bar.

bowlhead99

EdGasketTheSecond said:
 With GBSS you apparently can but need to contact the company to find out how. I expect there are some hefty charges for doing so and a high minimum amount so don't expect to get a sliver off a bullion bar.

Redemptions would need to be a minimum of 10 Brittanias or 25 Sovs and multiples of those thereafter; also a 4.5% fee (and storage or delivery costs if you're unable to go to royal mint in Wales to collect immediately on settlement date. And counterparty risk with the redemption process as gold is not a bank account or regulated investment so not covered by FSCS. 

And redemption can only be requested by the registered holder which for most people would be a cheap execution-only broker. Such brokers are unlikely to support the process through Crest in their nominee account even if WisdomTree explains it to them, and not without a fee. Practically you would need the broker to re register your ETF shares into your own name and provide you with a share certificate and then fill out the WisdomTree forms yourself for the amount of coins you want to cash out.

So, not a quick or hassle free process, but if you have £10k+ that you needed to cash out and wanted to pay the fee to get your hands on coins (which would then still incur a spread if you were later selling them to a gold dealer out in the real world), it could theoretically be done, but that is a relatively unique product with a relationship with the Royal Mint, and other physical metals ETCs don't have the same arrangement.

bery_451

bowlhead99 said:

EdGasketTheSecond said:
 With GBSS you apparently can but need to contact the company to find out how. I expect there are some hefty charges for doing so and a high minimum amount so don't expect to get a sliver off a bullion bar.

Redemptions would need to be a minimum of 10 Brittanias or 25 Sovs and multiples of those thereafter; also a 4.5% fee (and storage or delivery costs if you're unable to go to royal mint in Wales to collect immediately on settlement date. And counterparty risk with the redemption process as gold is not a bank account or regulated investment so not covered by FSCS. 

And redemption can only be requested by the registered holder which for most people would be a cheap execution-only broker. Such brokers are unlikely to support the process through Crest in their nominee account even if WisdomTree explains it to them, and not without a fee. Practically you would need the broker to re register your ETF shares into your own name and provide you with a share certificate and then fill out the WisdomTree forms yourself for the amount of coins you want to cash out.

So, not a quick or hassle free process, but if you have £10k+ that you needed to cash out and wanted to pay the fee to get your hands on coins (which would then still incur a spread if you were later selling them to a gold dealer out in the real world), it could theoretically be done, but that is a relatively unique product with a relationship with the Royal Mint, and other physical metals ETCs don't have the same arrangement.

Isn't 1 ounce of Britannia and 1 ounce of Sovereign is the same gold bullion coin? So why 10 for Britannia and 25 for Sovereign, Is it because they hardly have any Britannias' left in the vaults nowadays ? 

If this economic recession/depression causes the masses to run on the bank which is highly likely soon given the current circumstances we are in then whats the point of FSCS compensation anyway when high street banks gone belly up? Will FSCS able to bail out the Nations lost savings in £Trillions?

So redemptions cant be done by the main account holder but a execution-broker only?
What is Crest in their Nominee account mean? I don't mean cashing out the precious bullion coins, I mean exchanging ETF shares/token certificates for the actual gold/silver coins.

Only Gold can be done this way not Silver? Does the Royal Mint actually have any silver vaults anywhere in UK?

Not that many people in UK have gold silver ETF shares or certificate papers so shall I assume theres enough actual gold/silver in the vaults for the few ETF paper holders in UK? Or is the Royal Mint risky like banks where if the worse case scenario comes that is whole economic meltdown, high street banks go belly up except private banks and hyperinflation sets in then will Royal Mint still be there or go belly up to with empty vaults?

bowlhead99

bery_451 said:

bowlhead99 said:

EdGasketTheSecond said:
 With GBSS you apparently can but need to contact the company to find out how. I expect there are some hefty charges for doing so and a high minimum amount so don't expect to get a sliver off a bullion bar.

Redemptions would need to be a minimum of 10 Brittanias or 25 Sovs and multiples of those thereafter; also a 4.5% fee (and storage or delivery costs if you're unable to go to royal mint in Wales to collect immediately on settlement date. And counterparty risk with the redemption process as gold is not a bank account or regulated investment so not covered by FSCS. 

And redemption can only be requested by the registered holder which for most people would be a cheap execution-only broker. Such brokers are unlikely to support the process through Crest in their nominee account even if WisdomTree explains it to them, and not without a fee. Practically you would need the broker to re register your ETF shares into your own name and provide you with a share certificate and then fill out the WisdomTree forms yourself for the amount of coins you want to cash out.

So, not a quick or hassle free process, but if you have £10k+ that you needed to cash out and wanted to pay the fee to get your hands on coins (which would then still incur a spread if you were later selling them to a gold dealer out in the real world), it could theoretically be done, but that is a relatively unique product with a relationship with the Royal Mint, and other physical metals ETCs don't have the same arrangement.

Isn't 1 ounce of Britannia and 1 ounce of Sovereign is the same gold bullion coin? So why 10 for Britannia and 25 for Sovereign, Is it because they hardly have any Britannias' left in the vaults nowadays ? 

Britannias and Sovereigns have different weights. Britannia has an ounce of gold in it, while Sovereigns are a smaller denomination, with less value. So it's like saying if they wanted to have a minimum withdrawal from a bank account, £10 in pound coins and £10 in 20pence pieces is the same £2 value so why have a minimum of ten coins for withdrawing pound coins and a minimum of fifty coins for withdrawing in 20p pieces.

They will let you take a roll of 25 sovereigns (easily packageable and transportable amount) or 10 Britannias (likewise), though there are not actually 2.5 sovereigns to a britannia, it is just a practically workable amount that means they don't have to deal with requests for just a few coins which is not worth their while.

If this economic recession/depression causes the masses to run on the bank which is highly likely soon given the current circumstances we are in then whats the point of FSCS compensation anyway when high street banks gone belly up? Will FSCS able to bail out the Nations lost savings in £Trillions?

The nation will not 'lose' trillions of lost savings, and if all high street banks go belly up there will likely be rioting in the streets and having a roll of gold coins will not prevent you from being stabbed in the face by an angry neighbour who wants to take both your lunch and your stash of gold coins. But theoretically yes, FSCS will pay you out for lost deposits through a levy on financial services businesses (there will always be new financial services businesses taking the place of the old ones) and in the short term will borrrow unlimited amounts of money from HM Treasury to pay to you and your fellow depositors.

What is Crest in their Nominee account mean? 

CREST is the settlement system for financial instruments trading on the UK stock exchange, including ETFs and ETCs.

With this particular product mentioned, if you are the registered holder of a share in the ETC, you can redeem your share in exchange for physical gold coins. If you are not the registered holder because you bought the ETC shares online and hold them electronically through a broker 's nominee account (the most popular and common way, to hold them), the broker would first need to re-register the share into your own name  and get you a paper certificate, which is different from having the legal ownership registered in the name of the broker's nominee account and you just appearing on the broker's nominee ledger of people on whose behalf he legally owns the shares.

I don't mean cashing out the precious bullion coins, I mean exchanging ETF shares/token certificates for the actual gold/silver coins.

Exchanging the share certificates for actual gold/silver coins, for a fee, *is* 'cashing out the precious bullion coins'.  Alternatively you can save the costs and hassle of doing that and sell your shares on the open market in exchange for cash, and never touch any coins.

Only Gold can be done this way not Silver?
Does the Royal Mint actually have any silver vaults anywhere in UK?

The Royal Mint does have stores of silver and produces silver coins from it which it will store safely until someone wants to buy the coins. But as silver is much less valuable than gold it takes up more space and is less practical to get a big roll of coins - and it is not viewed as a metal with quite the same investment popularity - hence there are no ETC products that let you redeem your ETC shares for silver coins.

Not that many people in UK have gold silver ETF shares or certificate papers so shall I assume theres enough actual gold/silver in the vaults for the few ETF paper holders in UK? 

The ETF / ETC owns physical gold. So yes, there is enough gold to give to its share holders. The value of a share of the ETC is the pro-rata value of its assets, and its assets are a bit of cash and a lot of gold.

Or is the Royal Mint risky like banks where if the worse case scenario comes that is whole economic meltdown, high street banks go belly up except private banks and hyperinflation sets in then will Royal Mint still be there or go belly up to with empty vaults?

You can imagine all sorts of crackpot scenarios if you want, including high street banks going bust and private banks somehow not going bust. Whatever you like. If there is hyperinflation and gold becomes more valuable, it would be quite useful to be the Royal Mint with stores of gold bullion and coins to sell. So Royal Mint will probably still be there. It has managed OK for the last 500+ years.  It is now a state-owned company, wholly owned by HM Treasury, so Treasury can give it as much money as it wants to go and buy more gold reserves, if they so choose.

bery_451

bowlhead99 said:

bery_451 said:

bowlhead99 said:

EdGasketTheSecond said:
 With GBSS you apparently can but need to contact the company to find out how. I expect there are some hefty charges for doing so and a high minimum amount so don't expect to get a sliver off a bullion bar.

Redemptions would need to be a minimum of 10 Brittanias or 25 Sovs and multiples of those thereafter; also a 4.5% fee (and storage or delivery costs if you're unable to go to royal mint in Wales to collect immediately on settlement date. And counterparty risk with the redemption process as gold is not a bank account or regulated investment so not covered by FSCS. 

And redemption can only be requested by the registered holder which for most people would be a cheap execution-only broker. Such brokers are unlikely to support the process through Crest in their nominee account even if WisdomTree explains it to them, and not without a fee. Practically you would need the broker to re register your ETF shares into your own name and provide you with a share certificate and then fill out the WisdomTree forms yourself for the amount of coins you want to cash out.

So, not a quick or hassle free process, but if you have £10k+ that you needed to cash out and wanted to pay the fee to get your hands on coins (which would then still incur a spread if you were later selling them to a gold dealer out in the real world), it could theoretically be done, but that is a relatively unique product with a relationship with the Royal Mint, and other physical metals ETCs don't have the same arrangement.

Isn't 1 ounce of Britannia and 1 ounce of Sovereign is the same gold bullion coin? So why 10 for Britannia and 25 for Sovereign, Is it because they hardly have any Britannias' left in the vaults nowadays ? 

Britannias and Sovereigns have different weights. Britannia has an ounce of gold in it, while Sovereigns are a smaller denomination, with less value. So it's like saying if they wanted to have a minimum withdrawal from a bank account, £10 in pound coins and £10 in 20pence pieces is the same £2 value so why have a minimum of ten coins for withdrawing pound coins and a minimum of fifty coins for withdrawing in 20p pieces.

They will let you take a roll of 25 sovereigns (easily packageable and transportable amount) or 10 Britannias (likewise), though there are not actually 2.5 sovereigns to a britannia, it is just a practically workable amount that means they don't have to deal with requests for just a few coins which is not worth their while.

If this economic recession/depression causes the masses to run on the bank which is highly likely soon given the current circumstances we are in then whats the point of FSCS compensation anyway when high street banks gone belly up? Will FSCS able to bail out the Nations lost savings in £Trillions?

The nation will not 'lose' trillions of lost savings, and if all high street banks go belly up there will likely be rioting in the streets and having a roll of gold coins will not prevent you from being stabbed in the face by an angry neighbour who wants to take both your lunch and your stash of gold coins. But theoretically yes, FSCS will pay you out for lost deposits through a levy on financial services businesses (there will always be new financial services businesses taking the place of the old ones) and in the short term will borrrow unlimited amounts of money from HM Treasury to pay to you and your fellow depositors.

What is Crest in their Nominee account mean? 

CREST is the settlement system for financial instruments trading on the UK stock exchange, including ETFs and ETCs.

With this particular product mentioned, if you are the registered holder of a share in the ETC, you can redeem your share in exchange for physical gold coins. If you are not the registered holder because you bought the ETC shares online and hold them electronically through a broker 's nominee account (the most popular and common way, to hold them), the broker would first need to re-register the share into your own name  and get you a paper certificate, which is different from having the legal ownership registered in the name of the broker's nominee account and you just appearing on the broker's nominee ledger of people on whose behalf he legally owns the shares.

I don't mean cashing out the precious bullion coins, I mean exchanging ETF shares/token certificates for the actual gold/silver coins.

Exchanging the share certificates for actual gold/silver coins, for a fee, *is* 'cashing out the precious bullion coins'.  Alternatively you can save the costs and hassle of doing that and sell your shares on the open market in exchange for cash, and never touch any coins.

Only Gold can be done this way not Silver?
Does the Royal Mint actually have any silver vaults anywhere in UK?

The Royal Mint does have stores of silver and produces silver coins from it which it will store safely until someone wants to buy the coins. But as silver is much less valuable than gold it takes up more space and is less practical to get a big roll of coins - and it is not viewed as a metal with quite the same investment popularity - hence there are no ETC products that let you redeem your ETC shares for silver coins.

Not that many people in UK have gold silver ETF shares or certificate papers so shall I assume theres enough actual gold/silver in the vaults for the few ETF paper holders in UK? 

The ETF / ETC owns physical gold. So yes, there is enough gold to give to its share holders. The value of a share of the ETC is the pro-rata value of its assets, and its assets are a bit of cash and a lot of gold.

Or is the Royal Mint risky like banks where if the worse case scenario comes that is whole economic meltdown, high street banks go belly up except private banks and hyperinflation sets in then will Royal Mint still be there or go belly up to with empty vaults?

You can imagine all sorts of crackpot scenarios if you want, including high street banks going bust and private banks somehow not going bust. Whatever you like. If there is hyperinflation and gold becomes more valuable, it would be quite useful to be the Royal Mint with stores of gold bullion and coins to sell. So Royal Mint will probably still be there. It has managed OK for the last 500+ years.  It is now a state-owned company, wholly owned by HM Treasury, so Treasury can give it as much money as it wants to go and buy more gold reserves, if they so choose.

Borrow unlimited cash from the HM Treasury or Central Bank of England? HM Treasury charge a interest rate like the Central Bank of England does at 0.1% interest? Who prints the cash out, is it HM Treasury or CBoE? I got a £10 note in front of me now, what can I read on there and what it means?

Okay so its ETC's not ETF's however I have to buy the ETC offline because online ETC's are through brokers only? The broker actually legally owns the shares? So if broker go belly up or scam me and I take broker to court then I cant legally win the case cause the broker legally owned the gold/silver shares to begin with?

So HM Treasury can print out much cash as they like and use that cash to buy more gold reserves?

How much gold reserves does the UK have compared to other countries worldwide? I hear China recently panic buying and stocking up on Gold reserves while the rest of us panic buying and stocking up on toilet rolls? Why is that? If cash money gets hyper inflated then people will use cash to wipe their bottoms 

EdGasketTheSecond

Gordon Brown sold off most of our gold reserves at the worst possible price in the gold market; hence nicknamed the 'Brown Bottom'.

China have been buying vast amounts of gold because:

1) They are smart

2) The want the Yuan to replace the US Dollar as the world reserve currency (and it will)

bery_451

EdGasketTheSecond said:

Gordon Brown sold off most of our gold reserves at the worst possible price in the gold market; hence nicknamed the 'Brown Bottom'.

China have been buying vast amounts of gold because:

1) They are smart

2) The want the Yuan to replace the US Dollar as the world reserve currency (and it will)

Damn, how much did Mr Brown sold our Gold for?
The Chinese Yuan money is not backed by gold so how will it be the world reserve currency?

bowlhead99

bery_451 said:

EdGasketTheSecond said:

Gordon Brown sold off most of our gold reserves at the worst possible price in the gold market; hence nicknamed the 'Brown Bottom'.

China have been buying vast amounts of gold because:

1) They are smart

2) The want the Yuan to replace the US Dollar as the world reserve currency (and it will)

Damn, how much did Mr Brown sold our Gold for?

Whatever he could get for it at the time - $250-350 /oz range; and what he could get for it was less than if he hadn't had flagged in advance that he was going to do it and held a number of big auctions to do it. 

It cost a few billion versus waiting a few years, though we were not using the gold for anything in particular, its value was volatile and it didn't generate an income, selling it allowed us to pay down some of the national debt and save interest while reducing interest cost on the rest of the debt, and some of the foreign financial instruments purchased with the proceeds appreciated over the coming years anyway.  Missing out on a few billion quid by not selling it earlier or later was not really the end of the world, though it was portrayed as foolish by the government's detractors.

The Chinese Yuan money is not backed by gold so how will it be the world reserve currency?

The same way that the US dollar is currently seen as a world reserve currency while not being backed by gold either.

The dollar is trusted because its a medium of exchange backed by a population of 300+ million working together in an advanced financial market system with tens of trillions of dollars of GDP which the IRS can tap into by changing tax rates.  It's not particularly difficult to imagine that another country with tens of trillion dollars of GDP and 1.4bn population could take over the role of 'safe haven' if its financial markets were less 'emerging' and its government were trusted more than at present.

bery_451

bowlhead99 said:

bery_451 said:

EdGasketTheSecond said:

Gordon Brown sold off most of our gold reserves at the worst possible price in the gold market; hence nicknamed the 'Brown Bottom'.

China have been buying vast amounts of gold because:

1) They are smart

2) The want the Yuan to replace the US Dollar as the world reserve currency (and it will)

Damn, how much did Mr Brown sold our Gold for?

Whatever he could get for it at the time - $250-350 /oz range; and what he could get for it was less than if he hadn't had flagged in advance that he was going to do it and held a number of big auctions to do it. 

It cost a few billion versus waiting a few years, though we were not using the gold for anything in particular, its value was volatile and it didn't generate an income, selling it allowed us to pay down some of the national debt and save interest while reducing interest cost on the rest of the debt, and some of the foreign financial instruments purchased with the proceeds appreciated over the coming years anyway.  Missing out on a few billion quid by not selling it earlier or later was not really the end of the world, though it was portrayed as foolish by the government's detractors.

The Chinese Yuan money is not backed by gold so how will it be the world reserve currency?

The same way that the US dollar is currently seen as a world reserve currency while not being backed by gold either.

The dollar is trusted because its a medium of exchange backed by a population of 300+ million working together in an advanced financial market system with tens of trillions of dollars of GDP which the IRS can tap into by changing tax rates.  It's not particularly difficult to imagine that another country with tens of trillion dollars of GDP and 1.4bn population could take over the role of 'safe haven' if its financial markets were less 'emerging' and its government were trusted more than at present.

Okay so our country national debt has been cleared by selling the gold or are we still in deep in debt now? Also will we be in more debt when the chancellor borrows £380 billion?

Gold been stable for thousands of years so how is it volatile?

I understand the UK did not adopt the Euro when we joined the EU and we still have the £GBP and of course we will still have it after Brexit but once we break from EU at the end of this year and become independent can our UK country survive on its own markets without tying to other world markets if the those other world markets go into depression and do not recover from this pandemic?