replace 3 doors and do 3 cupboards

richard123456

I had some carpentry work done in Bristol, BS16, and was billed a very high amount,
I was wondering if anyone knows how much the labour costs for this should be?

as well as the cost of the 25mm structural hardwood plywood materials and having them cut?

if you could give the individual labour costs of the 6 works also that would be useful.

the work was as follows:

replace 3 inward opening doors with new outward opening doors supplied by me and work on 3 cupboards,
the 6 works in more detail are:

1. Lounge door: replace 826mm x 2040mm door by new one,
with 2 hinges now on the other side, and the door now outward opening,
and with a eurolock handle installed.

2. Kitchen door: replace 726mm x 2040mm door by new one,
with 2 hinges on the original side, and the door now outward opening,
and with a eurolock handle installed.

3. Front bedroom door: replace 726mm x 2040mm door by new one,
with 3 hinges on the original side, and the door now outward opening,
and with eurolock handle.

4. Hall cupboard: this originally was unshelved, W1203mm x D686mm x H2330mm
walk in cupboard with a narrow door set on the left of the 1203mm side.

the new work is:

there is now a double door, 2 x 21inches, oak foil,
covering almost the entire width. each of these doors has 2 hinges,
and above these 2 doors are 2 mini doors cut from a 3rd door identical to the
earlier 2, also with 2 hinges each. There is also a locking eurolock handle.

Inside the cupboard are 6 shelves of 1190mm x 600mm structural hardwood plywood,
supported by battens.

all walls are partition walls, in particular the wall the original
and new doors are set into.

5. Back bedroom cupboard: this was a W2207mm x D917mm x H2330mm walk in cupboard. as you face the
cupboard originally that is a 2207mm side, with a door to the right:
1000mm wall on the left, then 726mm door, then 481mm wall on the right.
inside there was originally one shelf on the left, and a coat rail
on the right.

The new work is:

the existing shelf and coat rail have been removed,

the same 726mm door has been rehinged on the other side, with 2 hinges,
and a eurolock handle installed.

the left side of the cupboard has been shelved with 6 shelves of
structural hardwood plywood of 970mm x 900mm, all dimensions given
in same order as for the outer cupboard.

ahead of you when you open the door is 2000m twinslot shelving
with 6 shelves of structural hardwood plywood, 760mm x 320mm,

and on the right are 5 shelves of structural hardwood plywood, 460mm x 900mm

6. Front bedroom: originally one full width end of the room was
MDF shelving: W2701mm x D690mm x H2330mm. This was divided into 3 approx equal
areas by 2 vertical MDF panels. the original shelving was
only in the middle third and was approx 3 shelves. the 2 outer thirds of the width
had coat rails. there were 3 sliding mirror doors.

The new work is:

all the inner MDF shelving and panels and the coat rails have been removed.
The MDF panelling on the outer walls has been left in place.
the existing sliding doors have been moved 80mm towards the onlooker
making the cupboard 80mm deeper. The upper and lower sliding rails for the
doors have been moved out accordingly.

There are now on the right, 5 very wide shelves of
2220mm x 545mm structural hardwood plywood, supported by
metal brackets.

on the right they are attached to the original MDF wall panels
which are attached to the wall.

on the left there is another vertical 2220mm x 545mm structural hardwood plywood
panel acting as the left wall of the shelves.

to the left of these shelves are 2 coat racks, one set in the
upper half and one in the lower half. this side is about 395mm wide.

there is a vertical batten at the front acting as a further support,
but all the other supports are metal unlike the other cupboards where
battens were used.

Anyway, that is the full work and I would be very grateful if
you could give me an estimate of the labour costs and say if its
inclusive or exclusive of VAT.

You can also include if you wish an estimate for the structural plywood
but not for anything else.

The structural hardwood plywood used is as follows and is all 25mm thick:

1190mm x 600mm : 6 shelves
970mm x 900mm : 6 shelves
760mm x 320mm : 6 shelves
460mm x 900mm : 5 shelves
2220mm x 545mm : 6 of these (5 shelves, 1 wall)

all of which can be cut out of 10 panels of 1220mm x 2440mm

many thanks
Richard

Furts

Depends what state the existing linings were, and what making good was required. All round nobody can say without seeing the job so I would stab at the doors done in one day, and the shelf work the following day. You can cost the materials, then add in two days labour. However if the doors are heavy then somebody needs to assist and likewise if damage is a concern. So add in for this. Then allow for disposing of the old doors and shelves.

richard123456

with the 3 room doors, ie 1. 2. and 3., the outer frames have been reused.

the only change to the frame of each door is that 3 lengths of wood with approx square cross section of sides 12mm-15mm depending on the door have been installed on the room side, and the original ones that were on the hall side have been removed. these 3 are next to the left edge, right edge and upper edge of the door
eg the one on the right of the lounge door is approx 2040mm x 13mm x 12mm

there is then chiselling in the existing door frame for the hinges, and for the metal thing of the lock.

on the door, the work is chiselling for the hinges and for the locking handle.

2 of the doors are solid core, and the other says "oak victorian 4 panel no rm", the part where the handle has been installed looks solid.

only with the double cupboard doors of 4. (hall cupboard) was there major change of dooring, namely the partition wall and original frame removed, and brand new frame improvised with lots of lengths of wood.
the new doors of 4. now extend almost the full width so no new partitioning done, the existing partitioning has just been cut back to a fragment.

with the cupboard door of 5. (back bedroom cupboard), the door remains outward opening but rehinged on the right instead of the left. so the only change to the frame is chiselling for the hinges and metal locking thing.
the only change to that door is chiselling for different sized hinges and to install the new eurolock.

I tried to get a carpenter to evaluate it, but as it was for work already done, he wasnt interested.

Furts

New door stops means someone has to purchase these, plus decorate these, decorate the existing frames and generally make good. You have not mentioned architraves, or any work here. Plus the solid core doors raises a query. Are these fire doors?

All round who knows - you have not said what you are paying, and a product is worth what someone is prepared to pay. However, if no price was a greed in advance the eventual bill should be reasonable.

Jsnb88

You can pay £30 for a door or you can pay £250 for a door, couple of days Labour, possible 2 men on sight, it really is hard to say. What did it cost you?

richard123456

there was no decorating done whatsoever, just some unfinished strips of wood.

except for the hall cupboard all architraves reused, ie no change. for the hall cupboard
the architrave is improvised with unpainted unvarnished battens.

what I am interested in, is the price for the work, not how many men or hours,
because what one man does in 2 hours another does in 1 hour, and when you
pay by the hour people know how to take more time than necessary.

the house was originally a council house built approx 1978, and these were
the original doors being replaced, nothing fancy. just basic and functional frames.

none of these doors is a fire door.

the billing is a bit vague, but for the 3 doors and 3 cupboards JUST THE LABOUR COST looks like 2480.40 EXCLUDING VAT, add VAT and its 2976.48.

I had a bathroom done, and then the above carpentry and electrics and tiling as extras.

for all the extras no prices at all were mentioned other than tiling was 22 quid per hour,
and then months later I got a bill for £12422 for the various extras. I have already established
that the electrics was 73% more than what my usual electrician would have charged.

Jsnb88

Looks very high, I would ask for a breakdown off your tradesman.

richard123456

they have given a breakdown, but its a bit vague. In future I will keep an accurate diary
of works done.

is there any way I can get someone to assess what a reasonable price for the work was?

I tried contacting a carpenter, but he said it was too much trouble estimating it as there wasnt any work to be done at the end of estimating.

say there was a county court case over various works, how does the court assess the reasonable price?

Furts

£3K sounds way over so why not offer a fair sum for the work then see what happens? You have guidance above but your approach comes across poorly, and as confrontational towards these. Equally I wonder if a fair settlement will be rejected out of hand because of the vibes that come across.

If court is likely you will need help, so a QS should be sought. However seeking PII and Court ability may be a tough and expensive task. Obviously this will cost, and require effort on your part - so best to avoid this route for as long as possible. Hence my suggestion for you to negotiate at this stage.

But whatever your QS comes up with expect the other side to dispute this, and any doubts put before a court could scupper your case.

Extras never come cheap which is why you should have avoided having them. Plus the costs of a Project Manager or a Clerk of Works could have been covered many times over by now. You have not mentioned these so I assume you did not have them. But if you did then the effort should come from them and your resolution come from their direction.

richard123456

QS=quantity surveyor?
Pll=?
the problem is how do I decide what a fair sum is?
that's why I was asking here!
its a circular situation,
if I ask a carpenter, they arent interested because there isnt any work for them from evaluating it.
but you think a quantity surveyor will be able to do the evaluation?

richard123456

you say I am being confrontational, but its because this specific question is just the tip of an iceberg,
there is a whole series of other problems that I dont want to get into. the real problem was I was too
unconfrontational with the company and they took advantage of this!

I think its disgraceful that disputes are encouraged to be settled privately, because it allows cowboys to keep using the same tricks and only back off when someone privately settles, the next day they continue with their same old tricks on the next unsuspecting victim.

it encourages a disregard for consumer law, because if you get caught, you merely settle privately and off you go again.

the moment consumer rights are flouted the company should be given a statutory warning and then if they
continue transgressing to be shut down.

with other forms of crime you cannot just settle the matter privately, but with the big matter of money you can.

it should be made illegal to settle certain forms of transgression privately, in the interests of wider society.