ParkingEye - darkened photo

hagy

I would appreciate some advice. I received a Parking Charge Notice from ParkingEye for a visit to a leisure centre. This has a "pay and display" ticket machine which does not require you to enter a registration number, simply that a ticket is displayed.

The PCN contains a very dark photo which shows the registration number of my car, showing the number plate, but I cannot see anything that proves I didn't have a ticket displayed. The photos looks like it was taken in the dead of night without a flash being used, even the outline of my car is barely visible and there is no way to see the windscreen/dashboard.

I make a lot of visits to this centre and I can't recall whether I displayed a ticket or not. Isn't the burden of proof on them to demonstrate that I didn't display a ticket? Can I respond with something like this (in addition to the template on the Newbies thread):

"Your poor quality, dark photograph simply demonstrates that my car was in the car park, it does not prove that a ticket was not displayed as a clear shot of the windscreen is not available. I do not admit that a ticket was not displayed, therefore I am refusing to pay as you have not proven that the terms and conditions were breached. If you do have clearer photographs showing my car's windscreen I request that these are sent to me ".

Thanks for any advice.

ampersand

DON'T SEND, SAY, EVEN THINK THAT, op - and welcome to mse, especially this section.

Wait for further advice, but mainly, read the newbies section here:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/73258663#Comment_73258663

It is the bible and skim reading isn't enough.
Go through it thoroughly and make notes.

Good luck.

hagy

Ok thanks for the advice, I'll hold off for now and re-read that page. I tried uploading a scan of the photo of the PCN to show how poor quality it is, but I'm blocked from adding links as a new member (no way to upload an image from your PC??).

I've previously received council-issued parking tickets that are absolutely undeniable, i.e. a crystal clear view of the windscreen from multiple angles showing a lack of a ticket, but this photo is a joke.

nosferatu1001

What do they say is the issue?Given they use ANPR they rarely state failure to display as a reason.

Umkomaas

If all you’ve had is a letter showing a front and rear view of your vehicle and its number plate (even a darkened one) then there had to be a mechanism/technology of linking the ticket purchased and the in/out camera detection. Despite what you say, I’d be pretty certain it’s a VRM input at the ticket machine, or an input into a tablet at the leisure centre reception.

A non-displayed ticket would result in a windscreen ticket (but in 99% of cases this isn’t a PE modus op) placed by a parking attendant, but that isn’t the case here, from your description.

hagy

Good point - I was thinking this was a hand-taken photo rather than ANPR, which is why I referred to some much clearer council-issued tickets showing the dashboard. I've never noticed any cameras on this site but I guess they could be well hidden. Plus it does show an arrival and departure time which is given right down to the nearest second.

The notice says this:

"On DATE vehicle REGISTRATION entered the leisure centre car park at TIME and departed at TIME. The signage, which is clearly displayed at the entrance to and throughout the car park, states that this is private land and that the car park is managed by ParkingEye Ltd. In addition the signage states that, as a paid parking car park, a Parking Charge is applicable if the motorist fails to make the appropriate tariff payment. The signage also contains further terms and conditions associated with this car park by which those who park in the car park agree to be bound.

Be either not purchasing the appropriate parking time or by remaining at the car park for longer than permitted, in accordance with the terms and conditions set out in the signage, the Parking Charge is now payable to ParkingEye Ltd (as the creditor)"

hagy

Hi Umkomaas, thanks for your reply.

There is no requirement to enter your registration, it's one of the old-fashioned ticket machines where you just input the time required and display the ticket on the dashboard. There's nothing to do at the leisure centre either.

Umkomaas

If there’s a charge to park, with various rates for different parking times, there has to be a link between the VRM and the ANPR cameras provided by the motorist. How else could this work (short of a ‘warden’ issuing windscreen tickets).

If it’s a free car park, but with a maximum time limit, no need for motorist input, it’s simply time in, time out, overstay the welcome and the system sends off a keeper details request to the DVLA, followed by a NtK.

hagy

I have no idea how they can prove I didn't have a ticket. The PCN says nothing about this, just shows the entry and exit time and photos, plus the notice I put above. This is why I'm wondering why I should pay it or just deny it.

When I've forgotten in the past to display a ticket in a Pay & Display council car-park, I've been sent indisputable proof that a ticket wasn't shown (clear photos of the dashboard from multiple angles). Could they have taken this kind of photo separately in case they need it later? Can I insist they make any such photos available to me?

Umkomaas

This is why I'm wondering why I should pay it or just deny it.

Neither. You appeal it to PE (see the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #q for the process), then to POPLA where you can get this cancelled.

Could they have taken this kind of photo separately in case they need it later?

Only if they had ‘boots on the ground’, which as I said, in 99% of cases, they don’t.

If this car park is convenient to you, I’d go along there and check (and photograph) what it says on the ticket machine, and check and photograph what it says on the PE signage around the car park.

You need to get this stuff now as PE have 6 years to pursue this to court, so going to get the evidence in 2023 wouldn’t be advisable.

One other possibility (long shot) for the issue of the PCN - was your visit outside normal leisure centre opening times?

hagy

Thanks again

I'll get some photos of the signage and the ticket machine as you suggested. I suspect they did have "boots on the ground", which, given the way this car park works (pay & display), would be the only way to know whether I had a ticket or not...this is starting to worry me as I'm now guessing they DO have a photo somewhere. Anyone got any ideas on how I can find this out and insist on any additional photos they might be holding? Thanks.