Brexit, the economy and house prices part 5

kabayiri

Herzlos wrote: »

There's certainly a lot of money to be made but I think most of it will be coming out of the pockets of the poorest in the country.

Did you really think these people would be safe from economic change just because of the EU?

You see a load of newcomers to your town. Your kids have more competition for jobs. And you're supposed to be grateful?

Don't make me laugh. The economic migrants look after their own interests, and so should you.

Moby

iro wrote: »

kabayiri wrote: »

Labour know they can't preach this open for all migration mantra, and at the same time appear to represent their traditional heartlands.


The key issue, both views cannot be reconciled.

If they chose the Metropolitan elite I fear for my country.

The young dont feel the same way about the world than many of those in the traditional heartlands. The future demographics will boost Labour, especially if we can get the young more politicised.

iro

Moby wrote: »

iro wrote: »

The young dont feel the same way about the world than many of those in the traditional heartlands. The future demographics will boost Labour, especially if we can get the young more politicised.

You may be right although the level of apathy amongst the young is worrying.

The country in which arguably the young are more engaged than their elders is Italy as there is something of a populist backlash.

Moby

What is good about this country is that by and large the younger generation are internationalist and outward looking. We don't have the same politics as Italy. Nationalism in Scotland is outward looking, positive and inclusive. Brexit imo also brings forward the prospect of the unification of Ireland for similar reasons. The likelihood for us now is a soft Brexit. This is sadly worse than remaining. It could solve many of the economic problems a hard brexit will bring, but quite obviously reduces the UKs sovereignty a lot more than being a member. I do not think there will be any gains in sovereignty from Brexit, most likely significant losses. Any and all replacement international deals will put us in a worse position, including the new deal with the EU replacing membership, and in particular also including the hardest of Brexits. British past politicians were not idiots when they understood that however unpalatable to a former imperial power, EU membership was the least worst option for the UK.

iro

Moby wrote: »

What is good about this country is that by and large the younger generation are internationalist and outward looking. We don't have the same politics as Italy. Nationalism in Scotland is outward looking, positive and inclusive. Brexit imo also brings forward the prospect of the unification of Ireland for similar reasons. The likelihood for us now is a soft Brexit. This is sadly worse than remaining. It could solve many of the economic problems a hard brexit will bring, but quite obviously reduces the UKs sovereignty a lot more than being a member. I do not think there will be any gains in sovereignty from Brexit, most likely significant losses. Any and all replacement international deals will put us in a worse position, including the new deal with the EU replacing membership, and in particular also including the hardest of Brexits. British past politicians were not idiots when they understood that however unpalatable to a former imperial power, EU membership was the least worst option for the UK.

Nothing to stop you campaigning to rejoin, the Lib Dems, the 'Renew' Party etc.if there is a groundswell then this will happen. At least it will be an open and honest understanding that we have to accept being a province of a superstate called the EU, that our currency will disappear, that we will be required to bail out the Euro, allow in unlimited numbers of migrants, ...................

Moby

None of those things you assert about being in the EU are true. It's ironic that Brexit will lead to a loss of sovereignty through the probable breakup of the union and lead to the unification of Ireland and we'll be a rule taker instead of a rule maker.

iro

Moby wrote: »

None of those things you assert about being in the EU are true. It's ironic that Brexit will lead to a loss of sovereignty through the probable breakup of the union and lead to the unification of Ireland and we'll be a rule taker instead of a rule maker.

ARTICLE 49 requires new applicants to sign upto the Euro

Zero_Gravitas

iro wrote: »

ARTICLE 49 requires new applicants to sign upto the Euro

No it doesn’t.

Quoting from this link: http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-european-union-and-comments/title-6-final-provisions/136-article-49.html

“Article 49

Any European State which respects the values referred to in Article 2 and is committed to promoting them may apply to become a member of the Union. The European Parliament and national Parliaments shall be notified of this application. The applicant State shall address its application to the Council, which shall act unanimously after consulting the Commission and after receiving the assent of the European Parliament, which shall act by an absolute majority of its component members. The conditions of admission and the adjustments to the Treaties on which the Union is founded, which such admission entails, shall be the subject of an agreement between the Member States and the applicant State. This agreement shall be submitted for ratification by all the contracting States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements. The conditions of eligibility agreed upon by the European Council shall be taken into account.”

No mention of any requirement to sign up to the Euro - just that there should be agreement between the member states and the applicant state.

Thrugelmir

Zero_Gravitas wrote: »

No mention of any requirement to sign up to the Euro - just that there should be agreement between the member states and the applicant state.

The aim is to make this a requirement after 2020. Back to the old chestnut. For the Eurozone to work. There has to be fiscal union. Currency, taxation, etc. As labour mobality is actually generally very low. Otherwise there would be have to be a distribution mechanism to redistribute monies from rich to poor member states.

Graham_Devon

Zero_Gravitas wrote: »

No it doesn’t.

Quoting from this link: http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-european-union-and-comments/title-6-final-provisions/136-article-49.html

“Article 49

Any European State which respects the values referred to in Article 2 and is committed to promoting them may apply to become a member of the Union. The European Parliament and national Parliaments shall be notified of this application. The applicant State shall address its application to the Council, which shall act unanimously after consulting the Commission and after receiving the assent of the European Parliament, which shall act by an absolute majority of its component members. The conditions of admission and the adjustments to the Treaties on which the Union is founded, which such admission entails, shall be the subject of an agreement between the Member States and the applicant State. This agreement shall be submitted for ratification by all the contracting States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements. The conditions of eligibility agreed upon by the European Council shall be taken into account.”

No mention of any requirement to sign up to the Euro - just that there should be agreement between the member states and the applicant state.

That's the written word.

But the reality is very much that a new entrant would be asked to use the Euro or not join. That's pretty obvious.