Brexit, the economy and house prices part 5

Windofchange

GreatApe wrote: »

No they are not most homeless people are dysfunctional and in hard drugs.

How can you help them if you ignore the facts?

Doesn't matter how many people tell you you are wrong, you just won't be will you? Want to provide us with some evidence that says near to 100% of the homeless are using drugs? Oh yeah, you have a policeman in the family who has told you they all are, so there, proof. This pretty much sums up your ability to formulate an argument. The irony of you stating others are ignoring the facts has me in stitches.

GreatApe

BobQ wrote: »

I agree where this happens it is partly their fault for what they have done. But addictions are complex mental conditions and are not amenable to simplifications of the kind you seek to apply. But lawmakers do not help in allowing these vulnerable people to be subject to continual encouragement to gamble. Also, while I have never been in that position, I can understand that when you are living a miserable life you might seek an easy solution to the problem.

There is no easy solution I wish there was.
However pretending these people or issues do not exist is stupid and does a disservice to the people who suffer from these addictions.
Most of the problems in the UK are dysfunction not free trade or capatilism. I am just pointing out the propaganda that tries and often succeeds in pretending these dysfunctions are somehow linked to free markets or capatilism

But there is outside of your ivory tower, mounting use of food banks demonstrate this. I accept that on a global scale this is relative poverty, but living in this rich country that you are so proud of there are people struggling and having to choose between heating and eating or feeding their kids or themselves. In UK terms they are in relative poverty. Statistically it seems to be no worse than a decade ago but around 25% are in relative poverty.

You really have no idea what poverty is. My grand parents suffered poverty for most their lives I don't need you to explain it to me I know very well what actual poverty is.

Food bank use is not necessarily an indicator of poverty. It is more an indicator of dysfunctional lives.

As the Brexit vote showed there is a growing proportion of disaffected people who wanted change, a lot of younger people who feel that the economy is not serving them.

Oh really I though it was the young that voted to stay and the old and Tory voters that voted leave.

The notion that we live in a great country is fake news. Like in the land that invented the term, we have a lot of people who are doing very nicely and a lot who are struggling.

I know a lot of people
And I know a of people who are struggling
But all of the people I know who have hard lives have dysfunctionall addictions or habits (or family members with those dysfunctions)

Can you hand on heart tell me you know many people with difficult !!!! lives who do not suffer addictions or other dysfunctional problems?

I suspect that your definition of trots extends to many in the Tory Party.

Old school Tories were just as bad as the hard lefties. Old school Tories believe in rank and class determining privilege and power. Birthright. That of course strinks but I think most of those Tories have died out its more a party in between Thatcher work hard look after your family Tories.

Free Markets are good, but unfettered and unregulated they do lead to poverty and unfairness. After all it was a former Tory PM who coined the term "unacceptable face of capitalism". Even for the likes of Corbyn political argument is not about owning the means of production. It is about making a market economy work for all the people not the few.

Old school Tories were just as much about command and control only in their world view birthright would lead to owning land and sectors of the economy. Hard lefties are about the state owning sectors of the economy and of course putting their mates as heads and leaders of the powerful positions. Both stink. Thatcher was about work and taking care of your friends and family earning you a decent life. She did so well with working class people because she gave them chance and opportunity to progress to own their own homes and to compete for better conditions and work. That for the working class sounds better than old Tories owning everything or hard lefties mates owning everything via 'the state'

GreatApe

Windofchange wrote: »

Doesn't matter how many people tell you you are wrong, you just won't be will you? Want to provide us with some evidence that says near to 100% of the homeless are using drugs? Oh yeah, you have a policeman in the family who has told you they all are, so there, proof. This pretty much sums up your ability to formulate an argument. The irony of you stating others are ignoring the facts has me in stitches.

Four out of five homeless people in Britain are regular drug-users - and almost half have used heroin or crack in the last month. The figures, far higher than previously acknowledged, have shocked homelessness experts.

'We were aware of drug use among people we work with,' said Shaks Ghosh of Crisis, which commissioned the research. 'What we never expected, in our worst dreams, was this level of use and addiction.'

One in four of Britain's homeless use cocaine or ecstasy, researchers found. One in three use tranquillisers. Only 4 per cent do not use either drugs or alcohol at all

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2002/jul/14/homelessness.drugs

GreatApe

Arklight wrote: »

People who work with the homeless are well aware that substance abuse is a problem. I invite you to spend a winter living rough and see what happens to your alcohol consumption and overall mental health.

I don't blame them they have a very difficult problem that might be impossible to get out under from. If anything can be done that works on helping them then I would support it

However what I object to is the constant propaganda that free markets or capatilism or the Tories are to blame for homelessness or the other ills in society

Almost all the Major problems in the UK are down to family break downs addictions and dysfunctional habits and ways. So why do so many on the left do their best to propagate propaganda that its the rights fault. Free markets and capatilism have made us a high wage country with full employment lots of freedom and opportunity. It hasn't cured addictions but I don't see any of the trots explaining how they will solve the million year running life and opportunity killing addictions

Windofchange

GreatApe wrote: »

Four out of five homeless people in Britain are regular drug-users - and almost half have used heroin or crack in the last month. The figures, far higher than previously acknowledged, have shocked homelessness experts.

'We were aware of drug use among people we work with,' said Shaks Ghosh of Crisis, which commissioned the research. 'What we never expected, in our worst dreams, was this level of use and addiction.'

One in four of Britain's homeless use cocaine or ecstasy, researchers found. One in three use tranquillisers. Only 4 per cent do not use either drugs or alcohol at all

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2002/jul/14/homelessness.drugs

So, around half of them have used hard drugs in the past month. 4% haven't used alcohol. How many of the general population don't drink do you suppose? If you took 400 "normal" people, how many would not have had a drink in the last month? Your article doesn't define not used alcohol - are they off their heads every night on 12 super T's, or just a can or two when they can?

Add to this, your source is from Crisis July 2002. My link is from Crisis 2013 - 2015. Maybe your figures as with your thinking are out of date?

GreatApe

Arklight wrote: »

We don’t have free markets. When someone opens a coffee shop or corner store and pays 100% of their tax then goes out of business because they can’t compete with the chain store over the road or internet firm that pays no tax, that is not a free market. It’s an oligopoly.

Your ilk seems to think that expecting employers to pay a living wage and for rich people to pay enough tax so that the state can provide basic services like health, education, transport and housing, is some kind of Stalinist assault on your liberty. Liberty to do what? Liberty to exercise your divine right to look down on people less well off than you? That seems to be the MO of the Right.

How did you infer any of that from my post?

Just to be clear I support the NHS fully and would be against its privatisation wholeheartedly
The reason is that free market healthcare doesn't work (well it does 'work' but its much worse). The reason is doctors and the medical sector take the !!!! in 'free matlets' and rig the system. Eg average physician earnings in the USA are £220,000 vs about 1/4th of that in the UK. The NHS run by the state is a counter balance to the greed and more importantly to the capability of doctors to rig the free market system grossly on their favor.

I also believe in benefits for those who can not work and even those who do not want to work. Only there should be some shame attached to it so people don't take the !!!!.

What I don't believe in is nationalised industries so lefties and unions can put their own in positions of power. That is unfair and leads to low prpdictocoty and lower wealth and wellbeing. Just like I don't believe in the old Tory views of glass and birthright that strinks just as much.


People should be paid whatever the economy can support for their skills. The government should top it up to a living wage if of isn't. Good news is on a great country like the UK with its free market system the majority earn good wages.

For 30-39 year olds the full time median earnings are £31,096 for men and £28,444 for women.
That means a couple working full time in their 30s have a household .of £59,540 which is enough to live a very decent life.

GreatApe

Windofchange wrote: »

So, around half of them have used hard drugs in the past month. 4% haven't used alcohol. How many of the general population don't drink do you suppose? If you took 400 "normal" people, how many would not have had a drink in the last month? Your article doesn't define not used alcohol - are they off their heads every night on 12 super T's, or just a can or two when they can?

Add to this, your source is from Crisis July 2002. My link is from Crisis 2013 - 2015. Maybe your figures as with your thinking are out of date?

You are so blind to reality
How can you help these people if you pretend it's down to just not having enough money?
You are insulting all the people who work in social services by making out that these peoples problems are an easy fix. If it was just money or just a roof over their heads it would have been fixed decades ago. How can you not see this?

Also the link said 4/5ths use drugs. That is 80% not 50%. It said 50% use heroin and crack

Windofchange

GreatApe wrote: »

You are so blind to reality
How can you help these people if you pretend it's down to just not having enough money?
You are insulting all the people who work in social services by making out that these peoples problems are an easy fix. If it was just money or just a roof over their heads it would have been fixed decades ago. How can you not see this?

I don't even know where to start with this. You have spent 5 pages saying that these people are all dysfunctional and need to just stop taking drugs, and now you are trying to make out I'm the one who is blind to reality? And, to top it off, I have according to you been insulting the homeless and the dysfunctional as you put it. Find me the post where I have said that it is all down to money, and find me the post where I have said the problems are easy to fix?

GreatApe wrote: »

Also the link said 4/5ths use drugs. That is 80% not 50%. It said 50% use heroin and crack

Hence I said hard drugs. I also said that you have found a report from the same charity that I did - Crisis. Your one is from 2002, my one is from a couple of years ago. Which one do you think is the most relevant to today?

If you just want to make up things and then argue with yourself, why don't you just go sit in a closet somewhere?

GreatApe

Windofchange wrote: »

I don't even know where to start with this. You have spent 5 pages saying that these people are all dysfunctional and need to just stop taking drugs, and now you are trying to make out I'm the one who is blind to reality? And, to top it off, I have according to you been insulting the homeless and the dysfunctional as you put it. Find me the post where I have said that it is all down to money, and find me the post where I have said the problems are easy to fix?

Hence I said hard drugs. I also said that you have found a report from the same charity that I did - Crisis. Your one is from 2002, my one is from a couple of years ago. Which one do you think is the most relevant to today?

It is down to addiction and dysfunction
That's not me suggesting they can and should just stop I know they can't just stop they are addicted they can't fight it their brain chemistry is probably screwed for life. If you know a way to help fix them let's do it. What I am saying is this is a great country with high wages full employment lots of freedom and opportunity. Other bought up homeless which is an addiction and dysfunction problem not something to do with free market capatilism

As for which report to believe.
It is clear that all the reports are rubbish and unreliable else you wouldn't get hugely varying statistics from 29% to 95% on drugs.

I believe its probably the majority on drugs alcohol and dysfunctional lives. The alternative idea is that all these people are just on hard times good hard working faultless functional people. I'm sure that exists but those people are quickly housed and are off the streets. The beggars and street sleepers have much bigger problems.

To be honest I don't think it matters if its 30% 50% 70% or 100% its clear street sleeping is not down to free market capatilism

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Great Ape/Windy

Please stop.

Start your own thread for this bickering and quit derailing the Brexit one.

Actually - here's one I started for you.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5766080