The forthcoming budget

ruperts

mrginge wrote: »

A ridiculous statement that demonstrates an inherent lack of understanding about how people in any income bracket deal with tax rises.

Feel free to point us all in the direction of some credible research demonstrating that marginal tax increases cause people to leave the country.

There is plenty of evidence on the contrary from America, where different states have different taxes and moving from one state to another is relatively convenient.

The following is just one of many pieces which link to original research that you can find with a simple google search.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/beltway/2016/05/26/do-high-state-taxes-drive-away-millionaires-not-really/amp/

My example was obviously exaggerated but it remains a clear fact that few people are willing to uproot their lives - in the case of the wealthy very successful lives - to start again abroad purely on the basis of a marginal increase in taxes. It’s simply not the way people work.

All you big business cucks keep making excuses for the rich, not realising they’re laughing at you from their yacht while you’re slaving away for a wage that goes down every year. Grow some balls and help us all take back what is ours.

mrginge

ruperts wrote: »

Feel free to point us all in the direction of some credible research demonstrating that marginal tax increases cause people to leave the country.

There is plenty of evidence on the contrary from America, where different states have different taxes and moving from one state to another is relatively convenient.

The following is just one of many pieces which link to original research that you can find with a simple google search.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/beltway/2016/05/26/do-high-state-taxes-drive-away-millionaires-not-really/amp/

My example was obviously exaggerated but it remains a clear fact that few people are willing to uproot their lives - in the case of the wealthy very successful lives - to start again abroad purely on the basis of a marginal increase in taxes. It’s simply not the way people work.

All you big business cucks keep making excuses for the rich, not realising they’re laughing at you from their yacht while you’re slaving away for a wage that goes down every year. Grow some balls and help us all take back what is ours.

Why you think that the only way to avoid tax is by leaving the country god only knows.
But you seem to have constructed an entire straw man post around such a premise anyway.

And you seem to think that tax planning is limited to big business and the rich, which is another load of cobblers.
For example, one of the most widespread methods of reducing tax for the self employed is to use a limited company and replace salary with dividends. Not rocket science at all and certainly not a move restricted to those in the top 1%. Why aren’t you complaining about all the extra tax these people aren’t paying? Is it because those people aren’t rich?

With every marginal increase you make avoidance a more appealing and cost effective option for a few more people. The only question that needs answering is whether those marginal increases have pushed over the peak of the Laffer curve.

GreatApe

mrginge wrote: »

Why you think that the only way to avoid tax is by leaving the country god only knows.
But you seem to have constructed an entire straw man post around such a premise anyway.

And you seem to think that tax planning is limited to big business and the rich, which is another load of cobblers.
For example, one of the most widespread methods of reducing tax for the self employed is to use a limited company and replace salary with dividends. Not rocket science at all and certainly not a move restricted to those in the top 1%. Why aren’t you complaining about all the extra tax these people aren’t paying? Is it because those people aren’t rich?

With every marginal increase you make avoidance a more appealing and cost effective option for a few more people. The only question that needs answering is whether those marginal increases have pushed over the peak of the Laffer curve.

Plus people can just stop working.

The rich by definition don't need to work and each % point taxes go up that is some x number more people deciding that it isn't worthwhile anymore. Some people think great more jobs for others but jobs are not a fixed number shared across the economy. If someone stops working its an actual loss

Then there are other factors too like gifting away wealth sooner to lower rate or zero rate tax payers. For example a rich person might decide when income tax goes from 40% to 50% that they would rather gift their rental property to their 18 year old kid who is just starting university. Go from paying 40% IT to paying zero (the kids living in it). So in that instance the tax increasing from 40% to 50% but it results in no additional taxes in fact a lot less.

And the truly mega rich have most their wealth in shares not in their work. If you increases taxes too much it's just a matter of moving country there is no worry about moving the job or moving clients or moving a small business etc.

And other perfectly legal and even encouraged ways. Increase income tax and I'm sure more people would put more money into their pensions etc

ruperts

mrginge wrote: »

Why you think that the only way to avoid tax is by leaving the country god only knows.
But you seem to have constructed an entire straw man post around such a premise anyway.

And you seem to think that tax planning is limited to big business and the rich, which is another load of cobblers.
For example, one of the most widespread methods of reducing tax for the self employed is to use a limited company and replace salary with dividends. Not rocket science at all and certainly not a move restricted to those in the top 1%. Why aren’t you complaining about all the extra tax these people aren’t paying? Is it because those people aren’t rich?

With every marginal increase you make avoidance a more appealing and cost effective option for a few more people. The only question that needs answering is whether those marginal increases have pushed over the peak of the Laffer curve.

I'm not going to blame you for not going back and checking the context of the discussion, but if you had you'd have seen that what kicked off this discussion was somebody expressing concern that people will leave the country because there are "better offers from places with better weather". Later in the thread another post talked about what would happen to the overall tax take were a high income business to leave the country. So not a straw man, just dealing with that particular argument.

I agree that tax avoidance is likely to increase under the current system, but disagree with that being a legitimate reason not to do it. Any tax avoidance opportunity has to have some sort of benefit to the country. If it doesn't, close it down. If public sector employees are pretending they are businesses in order to evade tax, stop them. If any of it is too hard, consider simplifying the tax system to reduce avoidance and evasion opportunities. It's really not good enough to say, oh well we can't increase tax because the rich will just avoid it.

westernpromise

There is also a moral question here of why 1% should be expected to pay income tax at 37 times the rate paid by the other 99% of the population.

michaels

ruperts wrote: »

I'm not going to blame you for not going back and checking the context of the discussion, but if you had you'd have seen that what kicked off this discussion was somebody expressing concern that people will leave the country because there are "better offers from places with better weather". Later in the thread another post talked about what would happen to the overall tax take were a high income business to leave the country. So not a straw man, just dealing with that particular argument.

I agree that tax avoidance is likely to increase under the current system, but disagree with that being a legitimate reason not to do it. Any tax avoidance opportunity has to have some sort of benefit to the country. If it doesn't, close it down. If public sector employees are pretending they are businesses in order to evade tax, stop them. If any of it is too hard, consider simplifying the tax system to reduce avoidance and evasion opportunities. It's really not good enough to say, oh well we can't increase tax because the rich will just avoid it.

I know someone on 60k with 3 kids who when the child benefit of 2.4k was going to be removed salary sacrificed 10k to his pension each year. Instead of saving the revenue 2400 each year for the next 10 it has cost them 10,000 times 40% tax, 2% NI and 13.8% employers NI - total cost of trying to collect more tax is £5580 per annum.

This is not a top 1% just a close to median adjusted household income family.

mrginge

An interesting (to me) view from the ifs on the merits of labours previous 2015 plan to reinstate the 50p rate.

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/7066

Both labour and the tories played the numbers game on this. The former claiming its introduction raised a fortunate while the latter claimed its removal did the same.

I think the reality is that it was as the IFS say, a marginal effect. So if for ideological reasons Ruperts and his mates want to bring it back then fine, say that. But please don't also try and make out that doing so is going to save the NHS.

ruperts

westernpromise wrote: »

There is also a moral question here of why 1% should be expected to pay income tax at 37 times the rate paid by the other 99% of the population.

The moral question is why should those who can afford the most pay less tax as a proportion to their overall earning and spending than those who can barely afford a bag of bananas.

Thrugelmir

michaels wrote: »

Replace personal allowance with citizens income and problem solved

Change takes time and can only be incremental.

singhini

There going to scrap child benefit in the forthcoming budget and also there bringing back military service for over 16's.
Also to beat inflation there going to add a nought to the value of everying.
finally they are scrapping the £11,500 personal allowance as its not fair on people who are on benefits as they will never be able to use it fully and replacing it with a citizens income of being allowed to earn £11,499 before paying income tax on any amount above this figure thus being more fair


exciting times
:iloveyou: :santa2: :xmastree:
the icing on the cake is the 30th of Feb exemption (and money earnt on the 30th of Feb can be earnt tax free).