Local Hall Refusing To Return Deposit

Jed_Exodus

sheramber wrote: »

how long did it take to remove the decorative item and the adhesive from the floor? Obviously longer than you had time for.

Saying they 'cannot afford too much cleaning equipment' would indicate that they do not have machines for cleaning but have to do it by hand so it will take longer.

Whether there was a cleaning service as such or not they had to pay someone for the hours spent cleaning which was not included in the rent for the hall.

Our local hall has a caretaker but he does not clean it. Everyone who uses the hall cleans it after them or arranges for it to be cleaned.

No but the charges for cleaning were paid in advance, separately from the hall hire. They said £60 to remove the adhesive etc which I've accepted and will pay.

Jed_Exodus

So this is still going on and I'm after some more advice. I've been in contact with Citizens Advice and they told me I should threaten court action in a letter sent by recorded delivery. As I was due to go on holiday I decided to wait until I returned and wrote the letter. It was received on Saturday. Today I get this email.

Apologies for not replying but your last email gave an ultimatum of the 9th October for
your instigation of legal proceedings and as I was out of the country on business I was
unable to get the photographs to you by that date and assumed I would get a summons.
However I have since received the correspondence sent by you so will endeavour to get
the photos to you as soon as I have time.
If you still wish to continue this action then I will withdraw our generous initial offer to you
and counterclaim for the true cost of rectifying the damage caused and also my costs.

I have asked a few times for these photos and still not recieved them, It's really not difficult in this day and age to send some photographs. I have a feeling they don't exist but what would happen if they all of a sudden show them at a hearing after ignoring my requests to see them?

Also is he able to make a counter claim for more money than they originally asked for? And how much could I be charged for his costs?

Thanks

TonyMMM

Sounds like there is still a deal to be done if you want to, but you are the one threatening court action so need to follow that through or back down.

They can claim anything they want against you - doesn't mean they would win.

They don't have to show you any photos at all at this stage - but it sounds like they are going to. If the case did go to court and the photos were used in their claim you would be entitled to see them.

Costs that can be claimed in small claim cases are very limited ...e.g. the court fee and travel expenses, not the costs of legal representation.

Jed_Exodus

TonyMMM wrote: »

Sounds like there is still a deal to be done if you want to, but you are the one threatening court action so need to follow that through or back down.

They can claim anything they want against you - doesn't mean they would win.

They don't have to show you any photos at all at this stage - but it sounds like they are going to. If the case did go to court and the photos were used in their claim you would be entitled to see them.

Costs that can be claimed in small claim cases are very limited ...e.g. the court fee and travel expenses, not the costs of legal representation.

I think there's confusion with the deal there, his generous offer was the original one whereby they keep £228 of the £400 deposit for cleaning that we had already paid £80 for in advance. Not much of a deal in my book and in fact I believe I'm being generous by agreeing to allow them to keep £108 and only asking for £120, in an effort to keep this out of court. I broke down the charges in an earlier post.

So what he's saying is that £228 was generous of them and threatening to charge me even more for the cleaning. As they've already returned £178 of the deposit and I've cashed the cheque, they can only get more money from me through legal action of their own.

It seems a bit far fetched that they haven't already covered themselves fully for the cost of cleaning before returning £178 of the deposit, otherwise why would they have returned that?

CardinalWolsey

I would assume that the photos would have been taken on a phone or digital camera. Ask for electronic copies of the original files, and ensure that the date/time taken in the EXIF data corresponds to when you held your event. This data can be amended, but you would then have a modified date on the file that differs from the file creation date - an indicator that something has changed.

steampowered

Jed_Exodus wrote: »

what would happen if they all of a sudden show them at a hearing after ignoring my requests to see them?

If small claims court proceedings were started, the court will usually order each party to disclose the evidence they intend to rely on to the other party no later than 14 days before the hearing.

They don't really have an obligation to hand over anything now, though unless they provide the photos you should probably assume they don't exist.

Also is he able to make a counter claim for more money than they originally asked for?

Anyone can make a counterclaim for anything. It is whether they will be able to prove their counterclaim that matters.

and how much could I be charged for his costs?

If you initiated court proceedings and lost the case, you could be liable for the very limited types of expenses listed here: https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part27#27.14

Jed_Exodus

If they were to hire a solicitor and I lost, would I be liable to pay for the solicitor? Also looking at some of the information I believe I can be charged for witnesses loss of earning up to £95? If they for example bought five witnesses would I be liable to pay nearly £500?

DoaM

It would depend on whether having 5 witnesses was reasonable ... I'd suggest that it wasn't. And even then there's no guarantee that the judge would award them costs - just because someone wins doesn't mean they automatically get costs.

And solicitor costs are capped at about £50 I think ... so they'd be foolish to engage one as they'd not be able to recover anywhere near their actual costs.

kazzah

I am the chairman of a Charity for disabled people - last weekend we held a charity event for 300 people at a community centre in Hampshire. We paid the fee for the hire of the hall - NO security deposit - we paid the hire fee and buffet costs 10 days prior to our event. We had all manner of arts and crafts on the go - we had a HUGE range of activities in the hall and the car park - the staff were FABULOUS we arrived at 7.45am set up and left at about 4.45pm - we did a general tidy and ensured we put all rubbish in sacks ( that the centre provided) and we left the sacks in the hall. There was a LOT of rubbish sacks for staff to clear and also the floor etc- we have NOT received any "demand" for additional payment - I am sure that any hall which is hired out frequently is well used to clearing up after parties and in my opinion this is simply an ad hoc attempt to secure more funds from the OP. I would NOT cave in to their demands - if they didn't want teenagers attending the party that should have been made clear in the terms of hire - they cannot complain about them AFTER the event and conveniently when they are claiming they need more money.
They are trying to pull a fast one - simply send a letter before claim giving them 14 days to return your monies or you will be seeking a court date. I suspect they will NOT have funds for a solicitor and I would think that you would be very able to represent yourself in the informal court setting- you have presented your case clearly and concisely and I think you would stand a good chance of winning- if they had any valid claims against your guests why did they not set them out to you until after you requested your money back ?

martinsurrey

TonyMMM wrote: »

They don't have to show you any photos at all at this stage - but it sounds like they are going to. If the case did go to court and the photos were used in their claim you would be entitled to see them.

I don't see how the photos help their case at all.

They offered a complete cleaning and clearing service, not a limited one, they didn't say they would only clear so much.

As long as the hall wasn't damaged, the fact that the trader (the charity) severely under priced is of no concern to the consumer.

I would LBA.