Window Quotation and Order Problems

chris1012

After many months or searching, asking questions and getting reassurances, we appointed a building company to take on our kitchen re-renovation (unfortunately 4 years ago we had our kitchen renovated but due to poor flooring, we had to have the majority of the room re-done).

During the quote stage, we asked for some additional works to be done, one of them being all the windows to the front of the house -

My email regarding the windows to the sales rep of the company and our initial main point of contact stated the following -

9. New front windows - upvc sash for 2x bay windows and 1x single - Downstairs Bay Windows approx. 1.9 x 2.0m Upstairs Bay Windows - 1.7 x 2.0m, Single Window - 1.7m x 80cm

I was then asked to send pictures of both upper and lower windows, which I did via email (all emails were sent on the 15th June 2017.

We also confirmed via call at the time the cost of each window and specifically requested both bays and the single window to be replaced.

Any how, when we received our overall quote, the section for windows stated the following -

'Windows - all glazing low E soft outer panes
Remove and dispose of 3 x existing windows to the front elevation of the house. Supply and fit 3 x best quality white faced UPVc sliding sash windows in keeping with existing.
To include spring loading with spiral balances and complete with finishing furniture/stays.'

We interpreted it at the time that the '3 x existing windows' were as per my email - 2 x bay and 1 single which would be the 3.
We had no reason to question anything since we was clear in my initial email and the company had been very detailed with the rest of the quote.

The windows are due to arrive on Tuesday next week and yesterday while speaking to the PM, we asked him when we should prepare to move things out of the way in our bedroom.
He then said after a pause, why would you need to remove anything out the bedroom....

It looks as thought there has been some communication break down between the sales rep for the company and the PM (who is also the owner) and mentioned we would have to pay additional fee's for the extra windows.

I advised him at that point it was all clear via emails and it would make no sense for us to simply change our lower front to UPVc Sash and not our upper front!

He said he would need to check the emails and get back to me.

How should I proceed with this matter?
We interpreted the 3 window panes as a 1 window and hence did not think must of the quote and as we had it all crystal clear in our previous email...

Any advise from any one who has been in a similar situation or understands our legal, would be greatly appreciated.

ComicGeek

Well, I'm confused just reading that. Normally a bay window would be 3 windows each (front & 2 sides) - so 2 bays and a single window would be 7 windows, not 9.

A lot of people change single windows due to cost, so I don't think that it's that uncommon.

Sounds like there has been a miscommunication, but I can't see why the builder should pay for this - if you want it done, agree on the additional cost for it. You could always ask for a goodwill reduction, but I can't see that they have any duty to agree to it.

chris1012

ComicGeek wrote: »

Well, I'm confused just reading that. Normally a bay window would be 3 windows each (front & 2 sides) - so 2 bays and a single window would be 7 windows, not 9.

A lot of people change single windows due to cost, so I don't think that it's that uncommon.

Sounds like there has been a miscommunication, but I can't see why the builder should pay for this - if you want it done, agree on the additional cost for it. You could always ask for a goodwill reduction, but I can't see that they have any duty to agree to it.

Sorry, that was point 9. instead of 9 windows.

To give you full context -

Our first quote did not include windows and costed 9k for all the works in the kitchen.
It was only when we added the windows, extra radiators to the front of the house and some additional plumbing works the quotes cost increased to 23k

The fact we specifically requested in the email that we wanted 2 bay windows and a single and verbally clearly made it clear at the time we spoke to the the surveyor and then provided him a photo of the upper and lower windows with measurements, would leave little room for error or so we would have thought.

I am not sure where the miscommunication from our side came from?

ComicGeek

Well you assumed that the quote meant something else to what was written - the builder also didn't get the right message internally. Both are mistakes and miscommunications.

If they haven't priced for these extra items, they need to give an extra cost for it. You can then decide to do it or not. If they genuinely haven't included them within the quote I can't see how you can force them to do so for free! Have they given you a complete cost breakdown so that you can see the cost for just the 1 bay currently included?

Furts

Who knows the truth? It is one person versus another. However there are a couple of pointers in the story. Dealing with a sales rep is alarming. The golden rule with double glazing is never deal with these individuals. Why pay them commission and a rake off for doing nothing but acting as an unnecessary buffer and complication in the supply chain?

Then there is a typical role of the sales rep - do not inform, and deliberately seek to down spec and delete items in order to maximise their rake off.

Finally the words "best quality" appear. Again a sign of complete idiots. A meaningless phrase inserted by sales type folks who are out to peddle cow dung.

Obviously OP has been foolish to get into this situation - a clearly detailed Specification then Confirmation of Order should have been the default setting.

The way forward? Work out what value and costings exist in what is going to arrive, coupled with what specification and quality. If it is a rip off then do not pay pending negotiation.

chris1012

The sales rep is actually also the surveyor...

So prior to agreeing and making a deposit for all the works, we had around 5 amended contracts.

The first contract came in at 9k, second at 15k, third at 19700 and lastly 23k

The windows were added at the point of the jump from 15k -19k.
We managed to work out from the other work that the windows will cost between 3-3.5k
That is when we asked for the break down -
200+vat+installation

As my wording was clear in my emails ans ovee the phone- 3 windows ( 2 * bays and 1 single), thr fact I sent dimensions for each individual pane and picture, surely that made it Crystal clear what we wanted and had no reason to think they would have any miscommunication.

The problem we have now is we have paid for 95% of the works as per schedule of the works and the first set of windows arrive on Tuesday (the PM cocked up the first order so we have been waiting for an additional 3 weeks for the correct windows to find out he only ordered the lower floor ones).

We budgeted 23k as our maximum/stop line and this company was one of the highest quotes but provided all the gurantees/assurances (FMB/Trust Mark etc).

The surveyor was fully aware of our budget and clearly knew we wanted all the windows replaced. The breakdown of comms is between the surveyor and PM/owner of the company...

Furts

There is window company operating in my area where the "surveyor" is a freelance, lazy, incompetent idiot with no loyalty to the window company and no interest in being professional. No interest in even measuring correctly! So sales rep, or "surveyor" is as meaningless as "best quality" Wise up on the double glazing industry. Your company may be one of the few exceptions to the rule, but it does not sound like they are. That is why I said about the Specification And the Confirmation of Order.

You refer to a PM being involved, which is strange, and then that person making mistakes - which is what a PM is employed not to do. These mistakes may be a smokescreen to con you, as indeed may be the whole story. Only you know, but many aspects of your scenario concern me as you may have gathered from my comments. I suspect you have been foolish and I suspect you have been naive.

Negotiation, and seeking the correct prices is the only way forward. Nobody on this Forum knows what was said, and you come across as wanting people to back your side of the story whilst ignoring alarm bells ringing against your viewpoint.

Step back and think carefully about your role in all this.

chris1012

Furts wrote: »

There is window company operating in my area where the "surveyor" is a freelance, lazy, incompetent idiot with no loyalty to the window company and no interest in being professional. No interest in even measuring correctly! So sales rep, or "surveyor" is as meaningless as "best quality" Wise up on the double glazing industry. Your company may be one of the few exceptions to the rule, but it does not sound like they are. That is why I said about the Specification And the Confirmation of Order.

You refer to a PM being involved, which is strange, and then that person making mistakes - which is what a PM is employed not to do. These mistakes may be a smokescreen to con you, as indeed may be the whole story. Only you know, but many aspects of your scenario concern me as you may have gathered from my comments. I suspect you have been foolish and I suspect you have been naive.

Negotiation, and seeking the correct prices is the only way forward. Nobody on this Forum knows what was said, and you come across as wanting people to back your side of the story whilst ignoring alarm bells ringing against your viewpoint.

Step back and think carefully about your role in all this.

Just to further clarify - the sales rep/surveyor (building surveyor) is apart of the construction company and is nothing to do with the windows company...

I agree in retrospect we should asked for s clearer break down in the quote for the windows section however at the time as he based the wording off my email (3 windows - 2bay and 1 single) and had verbal conversations multiple times about them, we didn't think much of the wording.

I even have the notes we made in June on paper where all his questions of the phone were asked about obtaining dimensions and it is also clear on there we always discussed the 2 bays and 1 single...

When you say wise up to double glazing industry, that is a little unfair.
The surveyor provided us the window suppliers website and even on their website it states £200 per window.
As mentioned previously, we worked out the difference for the windows at 3-3.5k which not unheard of considering my new neighbours had the same windows installed for 4k (another window supplier)...

oh and just to confirm the PM is also the owner of the company...

Furts

You say I am being a "little unfair" on suggesting you wise up on the double glazing industry. So be it, but I can only comment on your thread. I have said stand back and consider your role in all this because you have said 95% of the cost has been paid up front. This is utter madness, but I used the words foolish and naive because they are a little kinder. Come along and get real. The vast majority of problems with double glazing are with the fitting. Buildings Regulations apply here be it the glass, the fitting, or the sealing and cavity closers - even if nobody really bothers. Scratched glass, sticking windows and a multitude of problems can be present. You have, in effect, paid for the fitting in advance. What chance do you really have of being in control of your actions?

Do I think you are being ripped off? Quite possibly you are. Have you colluded and acted and abetted this ripping off scenario? I think you have left behind your duty of care to yourself. I also think you have not done due diligence. Consequently back to my comments, reiterated. You will have to negotiate and seek the value for what is being done. Then move forward.

As an aside, have you considered your Buildings Regulations duties/obligations in all your refurbishment?

chris1012

Furts wrote: »

Who knows the truth? It is one person versus another. However there are a couple of pointers in the story. Dealing with a sales rep is alarming. The golden rule with double glazing is never deal with these individuals. Why pay them commission and a rake off for doing nothing but acting as an unnecessary buffer and complication in the supply chain?

Sorry if I am not coming across clear -
The sales rep/surveyor belongs to the construction company and not the windows company.
We had no dealings with the window company.

The surveyor/sales rep of the construction company provided us with the details to the company, the prices and options....

Furts

It gets even more worrying. You are now saying the construction company has a sales rep/surveyor. Small builders do not have these. But your post suggests it is a kitchen re-fit and you may be dealing with a kitchen company? Yet regardless of this whoever they are, and whatever title you give them, of course they will take a cut on the windows. Of course it is an unnecessary piece of the supply chain. Of course it can lead to issues such as yours.

It sounds like the salesrep/surveyor/PM /whatever may be out of their depth. But you should be going direct to a local, independent window company, not increasing your costs by involving middlemen, or middlewomen.

All round it sounds like you are way out of your depth on all this, and as such it is quite likely you are being taken for a ride.