Lasting Power of Attorney

Touchstone_2

I have been giving this subject a lot of thought on my own and my wifes behalf. I have read what I can find on the forum about this subject and am amazed at the complex nature of it all. On the Property and Finance P o A I was relieved to see that there was an option to prevent the attorneys from dealing with finance until such time as there was a complete lack of mental ability of the donor. But then I read taking this option may create more problems than it prevented.
On Heath and Welfare. I gave up as I could not think myself into the worst situations that could arise and in which I would want someone to act/not act on my behalf. I wondered if anyone had any idea of the kind of things that one should or should not include in LPA's?
For those wondering about cost of LPA's, I have just been quoted £1,300 plus VAT for 4 LPA's, to cover my wife and I. Not forgetting the registration fees x 4.
The question is, is it really that simple to do it oneself on line and save on costs or are there good reasons for not doing it yourself?

Robin9

£82 each- see the gov.uk site

sanemumoffive

I'm going through this now with my dad; he was perfectly fine mentally and then my mum died suddenly and it kick started a rapid decline culminated in him losing his mental capacity over a few months. With various spells in hospital and worry over his health we've had to rush through the lpa which was challenged by his doctor and social worker to just verify his signature on it. He is only 67. Nobody can act on your behalf until you've been deemed to have lost your mental capacity and even in this instance every attempt has to be made to help you understand and contribute to decisions after this point. I would say if you have any definite yes's and no's as to where you'd like your money spent or any gifts you'd like to continue to offer and especially any specific medical requests you have and even where you would like to be accommodated if you have to be taken into a residential/nursing home make them known on the lpa.

badmemory

I did my own just before the price went down. If you initially print the form off the website & use their notes, which are extremely helpful, and plod your way through before trying to do it online. I think it is best not to place too many limitations on your attorneys decisions. If you put something like I would like my GP to keep my attorney informed regarding my health, you could find a hospital which has had problems giving out stuff they shouldn't refusing to speak to the attorney because they weren't included.

I only have one attorney & no back up but my mother's had me as the attorney and if I couldn't act then my sister next. But any attorney does have to be someone you can trust implicitly.

Malthusian

Touchstone wrote: »

On the Property and Finance P o A I was relieved to see that there was an option to prevent the attorneys from dealing with finance until such time as there was a complete lack of mental ability of the donor. But then I read taking this option may create more problems than it prevented.

Why relieved? If you don't trust your attorney to do the right thing while you have capacity then they shouldn't be your attorney.

Losing capacity is not on/off. It is common for people to have capacity at some times but not others. Allowing attorneys to act on your behalf while you still have capacity avoids the possibility of a situation where something needs doing, but your Attorney can't do it as you haven't yet been certified as having lost capacity and the power of attorney hasn't been registered, and you can't do it because you drift in and out of lucidity too frequently to digest and sign the documents. Or where you are fully compos mentis but can't sign due to a physical disability.

There are no downsides to allowing your Attorney to act while you still have capacity. In the unlikely event they did something untoward, you would simply countermand their instruction and remove them as Attorney.

To answer the main question, no, there's no reason you can't complete the forms yourself. And as others have said, in general you should avoid giving your attorneys instructions or limitations as it tends to have unforeseen consequences. Even the examples of valid instructions and preferences given in the official explanatory notes are mostly pointless and/or daft. If you can't trust your Attorney to make good decisions without you trying to second-guess them potentially decades in advance, don't appoint them.

sanemumoffive wrote:

Nobody can act on your behalf until you've been deemed to have lost your mental capacity

To emphasise the point, under the current Lasting Power of Attorney system this is only true if you tick the box "Only when I don’t have mental capacity" under "When can your attorneys make decisions?" and you shouldn't.

The old "Enduring Powers of Attorney" did require you to have lost mental capacity before it could be registered.

Yorkshireman99

Malthusian wrote: »

Why relieved? If you don't trust your attorney to do the right thing while you have capacity then they shouldn't be your attorney.

Losing capacity is not on/off. It is common for people to have capacity at some times but not others. Allowing attorneys to act on your behalf while you still have capacity avoids the possibility of a situation where something needs doing, but your Attorney can't do it as you haven't yet been certified as having lost capacity and the power of attorney hasn't been registered, and you can't do it because you drift in and out of lucidity too frequently to digest and sign the documents. Or where you are fully compos mentis but can't sign due to a physical disability.

There are no downsides to allowing your Attorney to act while you still have capacity. In the unlikely event they did something untoward, you would simply countermand their instruction and remove them as Attorney.

To answer the main question, no, there's no reason you can't complete the forms yourself. And as others have said, in general you should avoid giving your attorneys instructions or limitations as it tends to have unforeseen consequences. Even the examples of valid instructions and preferences given in the official explanatory notes are mostly pointless and/or daft. If you can't trust your Attorney to make good decisions without you trying to second-guess them potentially decades in advance, don't appoint them.



To emphasise the point, under the current Lasting Power of Attorney system this is only true if you tick the box "Only when I don’t have mental capacity" under "When can your attorneys make decisions?" and you shouldn't.

The old "Enduring Powers of Attorney" did require you to have lost mental capacity before it could be registered.

It may be blindingly obvious but the first, second and third most important thing is to appoint attorneys you can trust implicitly. Ultimately the whole system stands or falls on that. In my own case I have appointed the main beneficiary of my will plus two others. Under no circumstances choose the option that says they must act jointly. Do register it immediately so there is no delay if it is needed. Don't try and restrict the things the attorneys can do. If you don't trust them implicitly then you should not be appointing them! Make sure at least one of the attorneys is willing to take responsibility for turning off life support if need be and fully brief him. I am fortunate in knowing a retired Falkland veteran who fought at Goose Green and was subsequently a paramedic. He understands my views that mirror his own and will not shrink from his duty. The other two who are younger and lack the life experience felt unhappy about that scenario but are happy with the rest of the responsibilities. You can do the forms yourself. Finally do discuss the implications with all people involved not just the attornies.

brixham

Just had to make use of the POA we did for Mum. Best £100 ish we ever spent and a real god send.
While she was well we shoved it in the back of a draw. As she become a little more frail we registered it with banks and utilities companys so they would talk to us if necessary but she could still deal with her affairs.
Remember even the water board won't talk to someone unless it is their account.
We made use of it a few times. One day she got broken into and her purse was nicked. She was quite upset and the fact we could phone the overseas call centre to cancel her cards and contact her insurance company to sort everything out while she sat and had a cuppa and cried a bit was great for her.

Need to trust the people you appoint to do the best to help you when you need it but no need to get a solicitor to fill the forms in. Read through the notes carefully and it is really straight forward. The only thing I struggled with was who was meant to sign what bit first so I ended up inviting everyone involved around for tea and everyone signed on the same day.

For those around you please consider it as it has been a god send for us.

tacpot12

Sanemumoffive's advice contains a small problem - in the section that says

or any gifts you'd like to continue to offer

. Section 12 of the Mental Capacity Act 2005 prevents the LPA from giving the power to make gifts other than for customary occasions eg birthdays, marriages. Any gifts that the donor has been in the habit of making to individuals prior to losing capacity cannot be continued by the attorney. (The attorney can continue to make donations to charities).

If the donor is currently supporting someone financially, and this person is dependent on this financial support, some other way of providing financial support will have to be found as the 'gifts' can't be continued by the attorney.

securityguy

Actually, tacpot, the powers are slightly wider than that, presumably to accommodate cultures with other gift-giving practices. S.12(3)(a) is births and marriages, but S.12(3)(b) widens it to "any other occasion on which presents are customarily given within families or among friends or associates." But the key point is, as you say, that it's gifts and presents on occasions, not ongoing support.

It's slightly poor drafting to use "customary", because it's not clear whether it means "as is a custom in your culture" (OED: "Relating to or involving the customs of a particular society, community, etc") or "we customarily go on holiday in June" where it just means habitually or often (OED: "In accordance with the usual practice or behaviour of a person or thing; habitual, typical, usual."). From context it's the former, but I doubt there's a lot of case law.

POPPYOSCAR

I cannot really understand why solicitors charge so much for this.

We did both of ours online, printed them off, signed them all, sent them off.

Very easy to do.

As in a post above try to get everyone together at the same time to sign and date. We had 4 lots to do and it was easier that way.

securityguy

POPPYOSCAR wrote: »

I cannot really understand why solicitors charge so much for this.

Paying a solicitor to do a standard PoA seems excessive.

If you want to do something more complex, then getting a solicitor to draft it is probably a good idea.

However, "if it's complex enough that you need a solicitor to draft it, you shouldn't be doing it" is generally true.