Voluntary pay cut

paddedjohn

sangie595 wrote: »

Yes, independent schools have broken down a lot of the system. Was that a good thing? Because what I am seeing is huge class sizes, poor educational outcomes, and rubbish education. Doesn't change what I said. Just actually proves why it is valuable!

Nothing wrong with large class sizes as long as you get a quality teacher in place. In the 70's/80's classes of 30-35 were the norm without having the need of teaching assistants and the world is still revolving.

sangie595

hyubh wrote: »

Ending centrally-planned price fixing isn't 'reducing pay and conditions for everyone'. The way things work in the Gosplan-run parts of the public sector look a bit bizarre from the outside.

Most things look bizarre from the outside! Nor is it "price fixing". It is a nationally agreed pay scale based on evidenced progression points and experience. A scheme that the OP probably didn't object to when it worked in their favour. But regardless of personal opinions on any side of the argument, the OP is welcome to attempt legal action against the Department of Education. Because that is the only way in which they will get what they want. And it may end up, perversely, with the only clear case of the current government and the unions actually fighting on the same side.

sangie595

paddedjohn wrote: »

Nothing wrong with large class sizes as long as you get a quality teacher in place. In the 70's/80's classes of 30-35 were the norm without having the need of teaching assistants and the world is still revolving.

That really depends on whether you think the 70s and 80s produced high standards of education. Which I don't! From where I am sitting, that was where the rot really set in! But I didn't say that the issue was solely about class sizes - it isn't. But neither is education about teaching large groups of people to swallow information, and devil take the hindmost (and often the foremost too!). The "education" system spends far too much time telling people what to think, and not how to think. But based on what I see in schools these days, you'd need too be desperate to want to be a teacher. Commitment and vocation no longer cut it for teachers any more, when many of them are faced with disrespect on massive scales by pupils and parents, with violence, and with a blame culture that says that teachers are responsible for falling educational standards. Many committed teachers that I know have left and won't go back to it because of the conditions they face on a day to day basis. I've seen regular examples of threatening behaviours and abuse from children as young as 8 or 9. Sometimes younger. And by threatening I don't mean even verbal threats - I mean attempts to attack teachers with weapons! And with no home support of teachers, the parents just as bad or worse. When even primary school teachers are coming home frightened of their pupils, there's no vocation in the world overcomes that.

But yes, class size alone isn't the only factor. I went to school in the 60s actually, and my junior class size was 35 to 40. In a "bad" (ie. Poor) area too. But you know what? If one of us had even thought of cheeking a teacher, never mind actually doing it, we'd have known to expect consequences. And that would have been before our parents found out - at which point we would be knee deep in it!

hyubh

sangie595 wrote: »

Most things look bizarre from the outside!

It's weird even within the wider public sector. The BBC flourishes without centrally-planned renumeration policies that it has to share with Channel 4, and even local councils (within certain bounds) have their own terms and conditions that aren't micro-managed by Whitehall like those they have to adopt for teachers in so-called LA maintained schools.

Nor is it "price fixing". It is a nationally agreed pay scale based on evidenced progression points and experience.

Erm, that is price fixing - fixing the price of teachers' labour.

But regardless of personal opinions on any side of the argument

Well quite, 'personal opinions' don't change the reality of the principles by which a functioning economy actually work.

the OP is welcome to attempt legal action against the Department of Education. Because that is the only way in which they will get what they want.

And how quite absurd, insofar as that is true. Just as well the OP is free to move to another part of the UK, or for that matter the Republic, if the NI state and your TU colleagues will prevent them from gainful employment in NI itself, eh?

Silvertabby

But yes, class size alone isn't the only factor. I went to school in the 60s actually, and my junior class size was 35 to 40. In a "bad" (ie. Poor) area too. But you know what? If one of us had even thought of cheeking a teacher, never mind actually doing it, we'd have known to expect consequences. And that would have been before our parents found out - at which point we would be knee deep in it! Posted by sangie595

Spot on - that's my era and experience too.

glentoran99

sangie595 wrote: »

So allowing the breach of agreed rates fixes that? Reducing pay and conditions for everyone creates more jobs?

Who said that? it was in response to the post saying "get a job directly"