Under lease missing can't sell house

Choochoo1111

Hi guys a little bit of advice needed after a 6 month stressful time
We sold our house (stc) in March and after all the usual searches turns out Under lease couldn't be located as only basic registry was made to LR by my previous solicitors who no longer trade, the person who is buying house is an investor who wants to turn into flats and and need a indemnity insurance to cover missing lease but my conveyance solicitor won't give them bespoke policy until Under lease is obtained council own the freehold of surrounding area including our street but have a leasehold dating back to 1870 landlords probably dead and nobody knows where Under lease is what do I do without this thanks in advance .

xylophone

Do you mean that the Council is the freeholder of your property and back in the dim and distant granted a lease to a tenant who himself granted a sub (under) lease?


Are you the successor in title to the lessee or the sub lessee?

Choochoo1111

Solicitors quote (
I have today received a letter from the Buyer's Solicitor advising that they are unable to proceed unless you can supply a full copy of the Headlease (lease dated 6th April 1875) and Underlease (lease dated 1st February 1921). I know ....... previously discussed this option with you and you advised that you would be prepared to speak directly with the council to see if they have a copy of both leases. However, as discussed, if they do not have copies of the leases this particular transaction will fall apart, and most importantly you will not be able to obtain indemnity insurance in the future for any new buyer.)

Choochoo1111

I have spoken to LR as has solicitor 3 ref show up for my address 1 is a basic one stating me and wife are the owners from 2006 , a council free hold from 1982 and a really old 1 that has 10 house on including mine . Spoke to council he said the one that shows all other properties is the under lease but solicitors said it isn't I'm clueless 😣

xylophone

The Council was ( and still is) freehold owner of a parcel of land and granted a Head Lease to a developer in 1875?

The developer built ten houses and granted under leases to tenants?

Is the document you have concerning the ten houses the Head Lease?




These under leases of the ten houses have been purchased and conveyed to lessee after lessee as time has gone on?

You yourself purchased an under lease in 2006?

In which case you have a copy of the Head Lease and under lease?

Have you approached any of your neighbours in the other nine houses to see whether any of them can throw any light on the matter?

Choochoo1111

Thanks for your reply we purchased house in 2000 and re-mortgaged in 2006 with a different lender all i have is a solicitors photo copy of a document registering the update to LR of ownership and what the solicitors have obtained from LR recently as i understand it yes the land is owned by local authority and a 940 year lease was given to house and others in street. when house was first purchased back in 2000 no under lease was passed on apparently to LR and estate agents no longer trade and totally off the grid apart from a address in Birmingham where he has set up other LTD companies with no contact numbers . council have given me ref numbers for leases that refer to council free hold my LR entry below and the sub lease ?? of properties 14-30 in the street but solicitors insist on (head lease + under lease) that nobody seems to know where or how to get. unable to get to see neighbours as i live other end of the country but have been told that next door were allocated to collect ground rent every year so will try to get hold of her this week. solicitor said if i was to re market property then they would be happy to issue indemnity policy but not happy to issue with this buyer sounds fishy ???


This official copy shows the entries on the register of title on
23 MAR 2017 at 11:42:01.
– This date must be quoted as the "search from date" in any
official search application based on this copy.
– The date at the beginning of an entry is the date on which
the entry was made in the register.
– Issued on 23 Mar 2017.
– Under s.67 of the Land Registration Act 2002, this copy is
admissible in evidence to the same extent as the original.
– This title is dealt with by Land Registry, Fylde Office.
A: Property Register
This register describes the land and estate comprised in the title. Except as
mentioned below, the title includes any legal easements granted by the
registered lease but is subject to any rights that it reserves, so far as those
easements and rights exist and benefit or affect the registered land.
GREATER MANCHESTER : SALFORD
1 (11.08.1982) The Leasehold land shown edged with red on the plan of the
above Title filed at the Registry and being ..............
Manchester (M30
2 The mines and minerals are excepted.
3 (11.08.1982) Short particulars of the lease(s) (or under-lease(s))
under which the land is held:
Date : 1 February 1921
Term : 940 years from 1 February 1921
Rent : £3
Parties : (1) Edward Hulme
(2) Annie Jackson
4 Unless otherwise mentioned the title includes any legal easements
granted by the registered lease(s) but is subject to any rights that it
reserves, so far as those easements and rights exist and benefit or
affect the registered land.
B: Proprietorship Register
This register specifies the class of title and identifies the owner. It contains
any entries that affect the right of disposal.
Title good leasehold
1 (06.03.2001) PROPRIETOR: STEVEN ......... and CLAIRE of ............
........... Manchester M30 .................
2 (06.03.2001) The price stated to have been paid on 9 February 2001 was
£37,500.
3 (21.06.2006) RESTRICTION: No disposition of the registered estate by
the proprietor of the registered estate is to be registered without a
1 of 2
B: Proprietorship Register continued
written consent signed by the proprietor for the time being of the
Charge dated 19 May 2006 in favour of Bank of Scotland PLC referred to
in the Charges Register.
C: Charges Register
This register contains any charges and other matters that affect the land.
1 (21.06.2006) REGISTERED CHARGE dated 19 May 2006.
2 (19.09.2007) Proprietor: BANK OF SCOTLAND PLC (Scot. Co. Regn. No.
SC327000) of Birmingham Midshires Division, Pendeford Business Park,
Wobaston Road, Wolverhampton WV9 5HZ.
End of register
Title number GM53.....

xylophone

The Council was and still is the Freeholder of the land where your house is situated.

It appears to have granted a lease of this land for the first time in 1870.

I suspect that this was the Head Lease and that it was granted to the builder of the houses that now stand on the land.

It may well have been for 990 + years.

The builder granted under (sub) leases to the purchasers of the houses.


In 1921 the under lessees were Hulme and Jackson.

The under lease was then sold on in 1921 with the benefit of 940 years remaining.

It appears that the ground rent was £3.00 per annum.

The ground rent was presumably payable to the holder of the Head Lease who presumably had an obligation to pay ground rent to the Freeholder (the Council).

You mention that your neighbour is supposed to collect your ground rent, presumably on behalf of the Head Lessee - have you ever paid this ground rent?

If you have, and she has paid it on, to whom does she pay it?

Does that person/company have any documents evidencing the right to receive?

What evidence in the council archives is there to evidence its freehold ownership?

Choochoo1111

thanks for your reply have got somebody poping around to next door to try and get information if any the council just gave me the details of what they have registerd at LR here is the one that covers 14_30 houses in my street
Title Number : MAN5......
This title is dealt with by HM Land Registry, Fylde Office.
The following extract contains information taken from the register of the above title
number. A full copy of the register accompanies this document and you should read that
in order to be sure that these brief details are complete.
Neither this extract nor the full copy is an 'Official Copy' of the register. An
official copy of the register is admissible in evidence in a court to the same extent
as the original. A person is entitled to be indemnified by the registrar if he or she
suffers loss by reason of a mistake in an official copy.
This extract shows information current on 17 AUG 2017 at 12:33:51 and so does not take
account of any application made after that time even if pending in HM Land Registry
when this extract was issued.
REGISTER EXTRACT
Title Number : MAN5......
Address of Property : 14 to 30 (even) road..... (M30 ....)
Price Stated : Not Available
Registered Owner(s) : THE COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF SALFORD of Salford Civic
Centre, Chorley Road, Swinton, Salford M27 5DA.
Lender(s) : None
1 of 2
This is a copy of the register of the title number set out immediately below, showing
the entries in the register on 17 AUG 2017 at 12:33:51. This copy does not take account
of any application made after that time even if still pending in HM Land Registry when
this copy was issued.
This copy is not an 'Official Copy' of the register. An official copy of the register
is admissible in evidence in a court to the same extent as the original. A person is
entitled to be indemnified by the registrar if he or she suffers loss by reason of a
mistake in an official copy. If you want to obtain an official copy, the HM Land
Registry web site explains how to do this.
A: Property Register
This register describes the land and estate comprised in
the title.
GREATER MANCHESTER : SALFORD
1 The Freehold land shown edged with red on the plan of the above title
filed at the Registry and being 14 to 30 (even) road .........
(M30 ...).
2 (15.12.2008) The land has the benefit of the rights reserved by but is
subject to the rights granted by the transfer dated 6/10/2008 referred
to in the Charges Register.
3 (15.12.2008) The land edged and numbered in green on the title plan has
been removed from this title and registered under the title number or
numbers shown in green on the said plan. The property description has
been altered to reflect the land remaining in the title.
B: Proprietorship Register
This register specifies the class of title and
identifies the owner. It contains any entries that
affect the right of disposal.
Title absolute
1 PROPRIETOR: THE COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF SALFORD of Salford Civic Centre,
Chorley Road, Swinton, Salford M27 5DA.
C: Charges Register
This register contains any charges and other matters
that affect the land.
1 The land is subject to the lease set out in the schedule of leases
hereto.
2 (15.12.2008) A transfer of the land edged and numbered MAN1...... in
green on the title plan and other land dated 6/10/2008 made between (1)
Salford City Council and (2) City West Housing Trust Limited contains
restrictive covenants by the vendor.
NOTE:-Copy filed under GM3144.
Schedule of notices of leases
1 Land and buildings on the 25.03.1868
Edged blue north west side of Irwell 999 years from
Grove 24.03.1868
NOTE: The lease comprises also other land
NOTE: No copy of the Lease referred to is held by HM Land Registry
End of register
Title number MAN5......
2 of 2

xylophone

have got somebody poping around

Saying the rosary?:)

At this rate prayer may be the only answer!

Certainly check with next door as you appear to have information that the owner has the right/duty to collect your ground rent.

How do you know this and what evidence can be produced?

From the information you have managed to glean from the council, it does seem to be the fact that they are still the freeholders.

With regard to the head lease and under lease , since your title is "good leasehold", the question of these leases must have arisen at the time of your purchase.

See https://www.fidler.co.uk/blogs/what-does-good-leasehold-title-mean/

A qualified title.
Most leasehold title is registered with absolute title. An absolute leasehold title guarantees that the lease under which the land is held is vested in the owner and also that the lease was validly granted. This is the type of title that would mean that a potential buyer could buy safe in the knowledge that nobody could come along at a later stage and claim any right over the land or property that has been purchased.

Some properties are registered with good leasehold title. This usually occurs where you cannot prove or ascertain the landlord or freeholders title or what restrictions may impact on the land or the property. The implications of this are that the Land Registry will only guarantee the title to land from the date of the registration of the lease. It will no prejudice any estates, rights or interests that would have affected the Freeholders right to grant the lease. Other than this a good leasehold title has the same effect as a registration with absolute title.

See also

http://www.fridaysmove.com/good-leasehold-title-%E2%80%93-how-can-i-upgrade-class-title-land-registry/15259

and https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/upgrading-the-class-of-title/practice-guide-42-upgrading-the-class-of-title

Is it possible that you could apply to upgrade your title to absolute and if you can, would this iron out the problem?