Trigger-happy Gemini Parking Solutions

Novalp

I have a long and complicated story here. Your advice is appreciated.
I moved in to a new block of flats in May 2017. It's gated with a private car park, patrolled by Gemini Parking Solutions London.
My landlord gave me my permit, and I wrote in my registration and placed it on the dashboard whenever I parked there. However, we were still moving in to the flat in stages, and living between our previous address and this new one, and because we still had to park at our old place, thus used the permit (local authority issued) for my previous address.
One night, I parked at the new flat in the Gemini managed park, forgetting to place the new permit on the dashboard. In the morning, there was a PCN under the wiper. I took it, and straightaway photographed my permit, and emailed appeals@geminiparkingsolutions.com with the picture, to prove that I had a permit.
In hindsight, and after reading this forum, I realise I shouldn't have done that, but instead perhaps just waited for the Notice to Keeper.
Of course, Gemini rejected my appeal, and gave me a POPLA number. POPLA also rejected my appeal, and I haven't heard back from either of them since then. Should I be proactive now and write to them to say I'm not paying, or wait for some horrible letter? When will they come for me?
Anyway this is where things get complicated.
On 13 July, my wife told me we had another PCN on the car. When I got home, there was a plastic PCN envelope stuck to the windscreen, but it was empty. As there was also a cigarette butt on the car bonnet, it looked like some kids doing petty vandalism to cars in the car park (a car was recently vandalised and damaged in our car park) and so we assumed they had found an empty envelope and stuck it on our windscreen for a laugh. I took pictures of it, and removed it, with the intention of writing to the property manager to let them know what I'd found.
Last week, on 15 August, my wife and I arrived home to find another PCN envelope, again empty, stuck to the windscreen. Again, I took pictures, and removed it because it was empty, and I thought it was kids mucking about, this time, serious about writing to the property manager. However, something stopped me....
On 17 August, two days later, we received a letter from Gemini Parking Solutions, re the PCN issued on 13 July (though all we got was an empty PCN envelope on the windscreen, and no actual Penalty Charge Notice) saying that the PCN was overdue and they're now charging £100.00. The reason given for the PCN is Invalid Permit.
(Since then, I've been browsing MSE for advice on what to do.)
Also, today, 21 August, I came home to find another PCN on my windscreen, this time with a PCN inside, stating Issue Reason 13, Invalid Permit.
As I said at the start, my landlord gave me the permit, and I see no reason why it should be invalid.
One reason that they may be trying to use is that I still had the old permit for my previous address on display (however, the car park signs say nothing about that), so the Gemini officer is trying to make some money by claiming that my local council parking permit is an invalid one for a Gemini managed car park? However, today I removed this old permit and put the Gemini one more prominently on display. Does this sound like it might be what they're up to? If I ask for evidence, will they simply send pictures of my car, highlighting my old permit from my previous address in the windscreen, and make sure their pictures don't show the Gemini permit underneath it?
I need advice on how to respond?
SUMMARY:
In total, we have received four PCNs (we think).
1 = June 2017 = No permit on display. Appealed via Gemini and POPLA, both rejected. Next step?
2 = 13 July 2017 = Empty PCN envelope on windscreen. No sign anywhere of an actual PCN. No obvious breaking of any car park rules or conditions, etc.
3 = 15 Aug 2017 = Exactly as above.
4 = 21 Aug 2017 = Almost the same as above, but this time with an actual PCN stating that we have an invalid permit, when the permit stuck inside my windscreen is the one given to me by my landlord, and has my bay number, where I'm parked, and also my registration.
Are Gemini in the habit of placing envelopes on your windscreen and losing the actual PCN itself? Is this a trick of theirs? Or was it a genuine accident that happened twice to the same vehicle?
And in what way is my permit invalid, when I've had it three months, and there's no expiry date, and my reg. and bay number are there, and I'm parked in the correct spot? Is there something I'm missing?
Now I'm constantly thinking about it all, anxious that there will be another PCN on my car again tomorrow or the day after, which is in my view, harrassment, bullying, corruption, and a complete abuse of power and responsibily from Gemini. I mean, are they a service or a business? Whom do they serve? They have done me nothing but harm.
Should I write to the property manager? Do they know Gemini do this? Will it make a difference?
God bless you for helping me and others with your advice and suggestions.

Coupon-mad

Gemini rejected my appeal, and gave me a POPLA number. POPLA also rejected my appeal, and I haven't heard back from either of them since then. Should I be proactive now and write to them to say I'm not paying, or wait for some horrible letter? When will they come for me?

I would wait, and if they try a small claim then we will help you defend. Forget that one for now.

Can you get evidence of the guy who appears to be ''ghost ticketing'' (i.e. it looks like the Gemini employee is putting empty envelopes to photograph)? The only way you could achieve that would be to deliberately put your Council permit on the dash again and literally wait (or get a dash cam which can be set to record even when the car is parked/engine off).

If you can expose this scam, Gemini would be likely be banned by the DVLA like UKCPS were for two months last year for the same serious/fraudulent conduct. And all tickets issued by that goon would be cancelled. Hence why if you can catch him and prove it, I urge you to stake the car out and do so!

Are Gemini in the habit of placing envelopes on your windscreen and losing the actual PCN itself? Is this a trick of theirs? Or was it a genuine accident that happened twice to the same vehicle?

Gemini are not known for it but private parking companies in general, ARE, so we would not put it past the sap of an employee to be doing this. It's well known.

Should I write to the property manager? Do they know Gemini do this? Will it make a difference?

Yes, read hairray's thread, it will make a difference if you are angry and proactive:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5588292

You will need to get VERY assertive about this scam which is why I really hope you can film the idiot in the act.

Half_way

if is not already been mentioned, what does the lease/rental/ast say about parking?
this is key, and you should check before getting involved with displaying any permit.

Novalp

I've just got home from work (25 August) and I've found another empty parking charge notice on my windscreen. I can't believe it. I didn't I've ordered a dash cam, but it hasn't arrived yet. Obviously, as there's no paper inside, there isn't an officer number or anything to compare.

The_Deep

Why do you need a permit? What does your AST/ landlord's lease say about parking? If no mention is made about permits your lease may give you primacy of contract.


The fact that you lost at PoPLA may simply mean that PoPLA do not understand the Law. Their decisions are not binding on you, and they often get things wrong.

Half_way

The first paragraph by The Deep has nailed it on the head, can you provide an answer to the why do you need a permit question?

Novalp

Reading through my tenancy agreement, I see no mention of the allocated parking bay or permit. In fact it doesn't even mention the car park.

Coupon-mad

So how do you know you can use the car park, and what paperwork came with the permit?

Novalp

So it turns out that the other cars (other residents) in our car park were issued with new permits (blue in colour, as opposed to yellow). My wife and I were given no notice that new ones were issued. Our landlord didn't mention it or send us anything.

When I found out (by looking closely at the permits on cars round about the car park), I asked my landlord if we should have received one as well? That may have been a bad move on my part, as I mentioned the four PCNs we've received, three ghost tickets and one for invalid permit; he said he would sort it out, but proved to be really clumsy and jumped to conclusions, firing off emails without checking all the facts, etc.; he said he would sort it out, and went ahead and emailed the property manager and Gemini to remove the parking tickets. After some to and fro, he found out about the first ticket we got, for not displaying our permit, and because I hadn't told him about that one he got really angry with me and changed his tune completely (in my mind, that's another matter and none of his business; a PCN that I have challenged privately with Gemini, a private company - I am under no obligation to tell my landlord about any of my PCNs, and this first one I got (as described in my original post) bears nothing on the ghost tickets / invalid permit tickets I received more recently).

My landlord showed a really immature and almost dangerous, threatening side, and sent an extremely rude email to me and my wife, cc'd in Gemini and the property manager to humiliate us and dress us down in front of them all.

My feeling now is that we should take up their offer and pay the £60.00. Then the emotional stress and constant worry about debt collectors and further PCNs is over (albeit they've bullied us into it, and have us where they want us - their bargaining is based on them cancelling the four tickets we received for invalid permit, which neither our landlord nor property manager told us we needed, so I feel like we are innocent of this anyway, and so it can't really be used to sweeten things and make us pay the original PCN, which was for a different contravention, and which I've already challenged via Gemini and POPLA). But I know that no-one in this (our landlord, Gemini, or the premises management) are really doing us a favour, and they have to prove some sort of loss, which I don't believe they have.

But we only have 48 hours (from about midday on Thursday), and I don't imagine the guy will be in the office on Saturday, so effectively they've said we have 48 hours but in practice we have less, and that added pressure could well force us to buckle and pay up.

Novalp

From the Gemini finding:

"There are a total of 5 PCNs on the system, 4 of which the vehicle displayed the yellow permit.
One of the PCNs, no permit was displayed at all.
In the PCN which had no permit displayed, the motorist had appealed to Gemini which was unsuccessful and appeal to the independent appeals organisation POPLA. In this arbitration process Gemini have incurred additional costs and we would like to suggest the following.
We cancel the 4 PCNs which had the yellow permit displayed on the condition the first PCN issued is paid at the reduced rate of £60. Once an appeal has gone through to POPLA the full amount of £100 would be due.
To prevent further PCNs being issued to this vehicle, I have added it to the exemption list and if you could confirm where the replacement permit should be sent to, I can get this processed for you straight away."

DoaM

Coupon-mad wrote: »

So how do you know you can use the car park, and what paperwork came with the permit?

You've overlooked this question ... it is important that you answer it.

If possible, please copy/paste exactly what your lease/AST says regarding parking - if it really says nothing, how do you know you can park there, permit or otherwise?