ESA or Universal Credit?

TELLIT01

The move back to ESA should be automatic, but 'should be' is the operative phrase. Best to contact ESA to find out what they are doing about reinstating the claim following a successful appeal. I wouldn't recommend closing the JSA claim until there is action on reinstating the ESA claim. When I worked on ESA we often received claims where JSA was still in payment. All we did was e-mail the relevant JSA team to tell them the date ESA was being claimed from. They would close the JSA claim and let us know to what date JSA had been paid so we could make the necessary adjustments.

Scotchmum7485

Tellit
Thank you
And should I ask about it being backdated whilst I'm on the phone!? I seriously didn't think I'd get any back payment sice my claim for esa started in April 2016 and didn't get assessed till may 2017.
It's all too confusing to me x

poppy12345

Scotchmum7485 wrote: »

Tellit
Thank you
And should I ask about it being backdated whilst I'm on the phone!? I seriously didn't think I'd get any back payment sice my claim for esa started in April 2016 and didn't get assessed till may 2017.
It's all too confusing to me x

Yes as previously adviced ask about your backpay too when you call.

Scotchmum7485

Thank you poppy
I'll get on the phone first thing tomorrow about it all x

epitome

Yes phone JSA and tell them you want JSA closed from the end of the payment that you just recieved.

No point phoning ESA until JSA is closed.
ESA cannot do anything until JSA is closed
If you phone ESA, they would (hopefully) tell you what I have done -to close JSA yourself and when closed then call back ESA -because it will save you a lot of time- If you were to insist that they contacted the ESA office, the ESA office would then either:
-Do nothing citing the fact that "JSA is still open" (I have seen this hundreds and hundreds of times) .
(you would then phone ESA back and they would tell you what your ESA office has said that JSA is still open and therefore suggest to you to close JSA)
or
-They would state in the notes that JSA is still open and they have emailed JSA, you are then waiting for that email to be actioned by JSA (about 5 days) Then for JSA to email back to ESA (another 5 days) when alternatively a quick phonecall by you to JSA would achieve the same thing in 30mins......
I then suggest you wait 24 hours, phone JSA back confirm it is closed then call ESA for the first time.

Both of which is just wasting your time. You close JSA youself with a phone call. Confirm on that phone call that is now actually closed. If they say it has to be "sent on" to be closed then phone back after 24 hours. If they say "yes it is now closed" then call ESA.

I disagree with Tellit, as this is a Mandatory Reconsideration overturn, You are guaranteed to be allowed back onto ESA* at Support Group. The Decision Makers decision will be recorded on the computer system. As soon as your JSA is closed and you phone ESA you can request a call back to confirm they will have your ESA reopened before the next payment becomes due. They have the decesion on the computer and the only thing stopping them from opening ESA is your JSA status.

*If it was an appeal win at tribunal, on regulation 29 or 35 the DWP is not obliged to reopen your ESA. The DWP can request a statement of Reasons from the tribunal, infact the DWP are obliged under DWP Appeals policy that if it is Reg 29 or Reg 35 and there is no Statement of Reasons from the court then they must request a statement of reasons from the court before allowing the court decision. They can also decide once they have the statement of reasons that they will take it to Upper Tribunal and refuse to reopen your ESA until the Upper Tribunal decision has been made. In this circumstance it catches a lot of people out who close their JSA thinking they won the ESA appeal only to be told that ..."No we are waiting for a statement of reasons" or "No we are taking it to upper tribunal" Then those people lost a couple of weeks of JSA and had to reclaim JSA.

*But in your case, you had the Man Recon decision changed, so none of that will happen to you. It is safe (and advisable in my opinion) for you to close JSA.

I also suggest that you forget about the arrears question, arrears are done when your ESA is reopened, the DWP knows they have to look at your arrears, forget about that it will be done without your questions.

Scotchmum7485

Thank. You so much x

NeilCr

epitome wrote: »

Yes phone JSA and tell them you want JSA closed from the end of the payment that you just recieved.

No point phoning ESA until JSA is closed.
ESA cannot do anything until JSA is closed
If you phone ESA, they would (hopefully) tell you what I have done -to close JSA yourself and when closed then call back ESA -because it will save you a lot of time- If you were to insist that they contacted the ESA office, the ESA office would then either:
-Do nothing citing the fact that "JSA is still open" (I have seen this hundreds and hundreds of times) .
(you would then phone ESA back and they would tell you what your ESA office has said that JSA is still open and therefore suggest to you to close JSA)
or
-They would state in the notes that JSA is still open and they have emailed JSA, you are then waiting for that email to be actioned by JSA (about 5 days) Then for JSA to email back to ESA (another 5 days) when alternatively a quick phonecall by you to JSA would achieve the same thing in 30mins......
I then suggest you wait 24 hours, phone JSA back confirm it is closed then call ESA for the first time.

Both of which is just wasting your time. You close JSA youself with a phone call. Confirm on that phone call that is now actually closed. If they say it has to be "sent on" to be closed then phone back after 24 hours. If they say "yes it is now closed" then call ESA.

I disagree with Tellit, as this is a Mandatory Reconsideration overturn, You are guaranteed to be allowed back onto ESA* at Support Group. The Decision Makers decision will be recorded on the computer system. As soon as your JSA is closed and you phone ESA you can request a call back to confirm they will have your ESA reopened before the next payment becomes due. They have the decesion on the computer and the only thing stopping them from opening ESA is your JSA status.

*If it was an appeal win at tribunal, on regulation 29 or 35 the DWP is not obliged to reopen your ESA. The DWP can request a statement of Reasons from the tribunal, infact the DWP are obliged under DWP Appeals policy that if it is Reg 29 or Reg 35 and there is no Statement of Reasons from the court then they must request a statement of reasons from the court before allowing the court decision. They can also decide once they have the statement of reasons that they will take it to Upper Tribunal and refuse to reopen your ESA until the Upper Tribunal decision has been made. In this circumstance it catches a lot of people out who close their JSA thinking they won the ESA appeal only to be told that ..."No we are waiting for a statement of reasons" or "No we are taking it to upper tribunal" Then those people lost a couple of weeks of JSA and had to reclaim JSA.

*But in your case, you had the Man Recon decision changed, so none of that will happen to you. It is safe (and advisable in my opinion) for you to close JSA.

I also suggest that you forget about the arrears question, arrears are done when your ESA is reopened, the DWP knows they have to look at your arrears, forget about that it will be done without your questions.

Which is great advice

But can you confirm where you get the line that esa is not "automatically" reinstated when someone carries on from the MR to the appeal

Completely get that it can all go wrong between the Tribunal Service and DWP but my reading from the links that I provided is that it "should" be reinstated without action from the claimant

As others have said I'd always advise a client to contact the DWP to tell them that they are appealing but your earlier post suggested that it was incumbent on the claimant to initiate the action

Be very helpful if you could cite your sources/experience/links to support your assertion

Thanks

Alice_Holt

NeilCr wrote: »

Which is great advice

But can you confirm where you get the line that esa is not "automatically" reinstated when someone carries on from the MR to the appeal

I'd also be interested in epitome's clarification.
Particularly for claimants who have not been able to claim JSA due to health conditions such as chronic anxiety.

It's interesting to hear that it is now DWP's policy to always appeal a reg 29 / 35 LTT decision to the UT. I shall have to look out for that.

Given that ESA payments can be resumed once the appeal is lodged, it seems very unfair to leave some successful TS appellants without income between the LTT decision and a UT decision re a set-aside of that LTT decision.
Especially as that UT process can take several months.

TELLIT01

epitome wrote: »

I disagree with Tellit, as this is a Mandatory Reconsideration overturn, You are guaranteed to be allowed back onto ESA* at Support Group. The Decision Makers decision will be recorded on the computer system. As soon as your JSA is closed and you phone ESA you can request a call back to confirm they will have your ESA reopened before the next payment becomes due. They have the decesion on the computer and the only thing stopping them from opening ESA is your JSA status.

I'm not disputing that the OP is guaranteed to be allowed back onto ESA. What I have seen in the past is delays in reinstating the ESA claim, and claimants who have asked for the JSA claim to be closed being left without any payment. It may be rare but it certainly happens. If the OP simply calls ESA to ensure they are aware that they have won the appeal, ESA staff will do what is required to close JSA and reinstate ESA.

epitome

Alice_Holt wrote: »

I'd also be interested in epitome's clarification.
Particularly for claimants who have not been able to claim JSA due to health conditions such as chronic anxiety.

There seems -to me- to be lots of different scenarios that I am being asked to clarify. I will just say this.

Having won the MR or an appeal, there may be some DWP guidance (I think there is, but I have not read it) which says to close any live JSA and reopen the ESA, but in my experience, which I can assure you is a lot, I have never, repeat never, seen this done. And I personally would question the legality of it. Some people on JSA get paid more than they do on ESA, so they might not want to come back to ESA (I have witnessed this on occasion). I can understand it if the DWP guidance says once the appeal is won, to pay any ESA WRAG/SG arrears that are due for the ESA claim whilst it was open and to pay for any gap between the ESA claim end date and the JSA claim start date. But in reality an ESA BC will not do anything until there has been claimant contact indicating their wishes. I won't put much weight on anyone here saying "they did it to me without asking", I know from my experience that I can put the chance of this happening about less than 2%.


Having won their appeals most will be phoning ESA and asking what happens next.... What then happens depends on what sort of Enquiry agent they get.

The ESA Enquiry agent could be one who is wary of sending a HOTT (because HOTTS are frowned upon in DWP) and will tell that claimant the usual line of "APPEAL wins and the like take up to 8 weeks to be actioned." and they will say lots of things to try to discourage the claimant from asking to speak to the BC. If the claimant is on JSA the claimant is dismayed at being told 8 weeks but they get on with it and go back to their JSA routine, phoning ESA again every 2 weeks and being told the same thing. Until one day they phone ESA and have been fobbed off for numerous weeks and eventually they get an ESA agent who says they will get them a call back, who will invariably tell them to close their JSA and then call us again when it is closed and then it will finally be opened as ESA.

OR they could get lucky, on their first call to ESA they could get someone who really knows that doing nothing and waiting for the change to occur on ESA is a complete waste of time. They would tell the claimant "close your JSA then call us back" (there being no point in sending a HOTT while JSA is still open.) or if they have already closed JSA, that ESA agent will look to see if the appeal has been allowed, if it has, then they will send a HOTT asking for ESA to be reopened.. If the appeal has not been received, that ESA agent would be best to advise the claimant I can make you an AJCS appointment to have your Tribunal letter and a letter from yourself to be sent to ESA to request ESA reopened ASAP.

It's interesting to hear that it is now DWP's policy to always appeal a reg 29 / 35 LTT decision to the UT. I shall have to look out for that.

They do not *always* appeal an REG 29/35 to the UT. About 3 years ago the DWP got fed up with the tribunal service sending back appeal allowed decisions on 29 or 35 with no explanation given, and when asked to supply an explanation sometimes the tribunal would send nothing or something insufficient. The DWP then issued a directive to all ESA appeal teams. If you get a 29 or a 35 without a WSOR, you must write back to the court and request a WSOR, DO NOT ALLOW THE APPEAL until you have the WSOR. If the WSOR was insufficient the directive was to take it to the Upper Tribunal. If the WSOR is sufficient you can allow the appeal. If the DWP went to UT, the claimants ESA would not be reinstated in the WRAG or SG, however those on Appeal rate would continue on appeal rate. I suspect by now the Tribunals have got wise to this and now do their jobs properly by supplying a full WSOR on every 29 or 35. But it is the only time that I would not recommend an ESA LTT winner to close their JSA.

Given that ESA payments can be resumed once the appeal is lodged, it seems very unfair to leave some successful TS appellants without income between the LTT decision and a UT decision re a set-aside of that LTT decision.
Especially as that UT process can take several months.

Not all appellants will be paid on appeal.
Indeed, that was my opinion too at the time, but that is what the law allows the DWP to do...apparantly.