Understanding the language of a will!

Touchstone_2

In connection with a Mirror Will, Can anyone explain, in simple terms, what the clause below means?
It is one of a number of sub clauses in a will and headed: MY TRUSTEES shall...............
" Upon trust in equal shares if more than one for all my children PROVIDED THAT if any child shall die or has already died in my lifetime whether before or after the date hereof leaving issue living at my death such issue shall take by substitution and if more than one in equal shares per stirpes the share of my Residuary Estate that such deceased child of mine would have taken had He or she survived me but so that no issue shall take whose parent is alive at my death and so capable of taking."
Thank you.

getmore4less

Touchstone wrote: »

In connection with a Mirror Will, Can anyone explain, in simple terms, what the clause below means?
It is one of a number of sub clauses in a will and headed: MY TRUSTEES shall...............


" Upon trust in equal shares if more than one for all my children PROVIDED THAT if any child shall die or has already died in my lifetime whether before or after the date hereof leaving issue living at my death such issue shall take by substitution and if more than one in equal shares per stirpes the share of my Residuary Estate that such deceased child of mine would have taken had He or she survived me but so that no issue shall take whose parent is alive at my death and so capable of taking."
Thank you.

start with

each kid gets a equal share of the residual estate
(as long as there are no other clauses making the residual shares different)


The bit that usually gets people.

"per stirpes"

is the legal that means the share goes down a branch in equal shares

o if there were 2 kids(now dead) that would have got 1/2 each and they had 2 and 3 kids.

The the 2 kids get to share 1/2 and the 3 kids get to share 1/2

if any of them are dead then their kids get to share the share they would have had.

when a line of issue(kids) dries up that share goes back up one and distributed to those at that level of the tree.

there are plenty of references out there that will explain that much better than I have.

SevenOfNine

getmore4less wrote: »

start with

each kid gets a equal share of the residual estate
(as long as there are no other clauses making the residual shares different)


The bit that usually gets people.

"per stirpes"

is the legal that means the share goes down a branch in equal shares

o if there were 2 kids(now dead) that would have got 1/2 each and they had 2 and 3 kids.

The the 2 kids get to share 1/2 and the 3 kids get to share 1/2

if any of them are dead then their kids get to share the share they would have had.

when a line of issue(kids) dries up that share goes back up one and distributed to those at that level of the tree.

there are plenty of references out there that will explain that much better than I have.

A good explanation.

The bit people trip up on is the use of the word 'issue', as explained it simply means child/children.

Our own wills use the words 'whole issue' to exclude adoptees.

Touchstone_2

Thank you for your comments.
You use the expression "whole issue" to exclude adoptees".
Does that expression "whole issue" mean that should our daughters remarry children of that marriage would not inherit and if it does not, what other form of words can be used. We would only want our grandchildren or their children to inherit.
Is "whole issue" still used with "stirpes"?

TBagpuss

I would not use the term 'whole issue'. Talk to your solicitor but you would probably be better to define that issue does not include any child who is adopted (although think long and hard about that - an adopted child is the legal child if his or her adopted parents, why would you as treat them differently, and would their parents (your children, if we are talking about grandchildren) want you to? It seem a very cruel distinction to make.

Step children are not 'issue' so would not inherit in any event, but unless you explicitilty state otherwise, a child born to unmarried parents is 'issue' of both.

If your daughter were to re-marry any children she had in her new marriage would still be 'issue', but if she were to marry someone who had children of their own, those step children would not, because they are not related to you.

SevenOfNine

TBagpuss wrote: »

I would not use the term 'whole issue'. Talk to your solicitor but you would probably be better to define that issue does not include any child who is adopted (although think long and hard about that - an adopted child is the legal child if his or her adopted parents, why would you as treat them differently, and would their parents (your children, if we are talking about grandchildren) want you to? It seem a very cruel distinction to make.

Appreciate your comments but it has to be said it is an opinion, given without knowledge of why we made our choices, "cruelty" was certainly NOT on our agenda, merely fairness with forward planning.

An explanation of why we made such a choice is in our accompanying letter of wishes, very loosely speaking it was possible an immediate descendant may marry someone who already had children, & choose to adopt said child/children.

It could be that we may never share the same close relationship with adopted child/children, (who could even be a young adults), that we have with our existing grandsons who we have been completely involved with since birth.

On top of which, it's quite possible the adopted child/children are may still have 2 parents & 2 sets of grandparents from whom they can inherit.

It was a STEP member solicitor who introduced the term 'whole issue' when we asked them to cover the above possible scenario. No reason then or now to doubt that advice but your opinion is interesting nevertheless.

Mojisola

SevenOfNine wrote: »

Appreciate your comments but it has to be said it is an opinion, given without knowledge of why we made our choices, "cruelty" was certainly NOT on our agenda, merely fairness with forward planning.

An explanation of why we made such a choice is in our accompanying letter of wishes, very loosely speaking it was possible an immediate descendant may marry someone who already had children, & choose to adopt said child/children.

On top of which, it's quite possible the adopted child/children are may still have 2 parents & 2 sets of grandparents from whom they can inherit.

When a child is adopted, the legal connection with their parent/s is broken.

If someone was willing to give up their legal rights to a child, it's unlikely that they would then name the child in a will.

SevenOfNine

Touchstone wrote: »

You use the expression "whole issue" to exclude adoptees".
Does that expression "whole issue" mean that should our daughters remarry children of that marriage would not inherit QUOTE]

Your daughters/sons could remarry several times, all children that are biologically theirs are 'whole issue'.

SevenOfNine

Mojisola wrote: »

When a child is adopted, the legal connection with their parent/s is broken.

If someone was willing to give up their legal rights to a child, it's unlikely that they would then name the child in a will.

..............grandparents get little say & have few rights, it certainly doesn't follow that the grandparents, though most likely excluded from the child/childrens lives by default, would merely discard them from their emotional attachment.

A parent choosing to allow their child to be adopted does not necessarily mean that they don't continue to love them, all things are possible. But this has drifted too far from OP's original question, it's not my intention to justify my choices!

Mojisola

SevenOfNine wrote: »

Your daughters/sons could remarry several times, all children that are biologically theirs are 'whole issue'.

But they would also be just plain "issue".

Step-children would never be considered to be issue of a person.

I've never come across "whole issue".

getmore4less

There were some changes fairly recently to the way adoption and inheritance is handled as there were some anomalies that were not obvious.