PCN from Gemini - Parked in allocated residential place

carless

Hi

I was wondering if anyone could offer some advice. I have spent the last couple of hours browsing through many threads having been issued a PCN and I think I may have already shot myself in the foot.

I was issued a PCN by Gemini Parking Solutions whilst parked in my nominated and numbered bay outside my rented flat in an off-street car-park.

I have been parking there for over 2 years and the only problem I have ever had is other people parking in my allocated space.

My permit had dropped in the windscreen and only the top of the permit was visible through the window.

The parking attendant affixed a PCN to my windscreen and took photos of the front and back of the car. I approached him and he said he couldnt do anything but I should send an email to the appeals address on the back of the ticket.

I sent the below:
[FONT=&quot]Dear Sir/Madam[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I am writing with reference to the ticket [/FONT][FONT=&quot]0000######[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]that was left on my vehicle Registration **** *** on the Xth August. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]As per the PCN it states that there was no permit however it was on my dashboard. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I was parked in my allocated parking space and attach photos of the permit. (photos were attached).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I have both permits in the car as I am unsure which one to display as there were two sent for some reason. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I live at XX ######### and was parked in bay XX which is my space. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]As such I believe the PCN to be issued incorrectly. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I spoke to the man issuing the tickets whilst I pointed out the permits but he said I needed to email yourselves to address the issue as he had already printed the ticket. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Kind Regards[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]XXXXXX[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I today received the below response:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Xth August 2017 Parking Charge Number: ######
Vehicle Registration: #######
Date PCN Issued: XX/08/2017 Location: (Address Spelt Incorrectly) Contravention: No Permit POPLA Verification Code: ############
Dear Appellant,
You recently contacted us to appeal the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) ###### that was issued to the driver of vehicle registration ####### on XX/08/2017 at (Address Spelt Incorrectly), A-B (Address Spelt Incorrectly), London, XXX XXX. This PCN was issued because the vehicle broke the following parking regulation: No Permit. We have noted your comments that you have a valid permit. Please be advised that on the date of contravention there was no permit on display in the windscreen of the above vehicle.
We have carefully considered your appeal. Unfortunately, for the reasons below, your appeal has been unsuccessful.
• Parking regulations are displayed on clearly visible signs at the entrance and throughout the location. Please see below for photographic evidence.
• Those regulations state that a valid permit must be clearly displayed in the windscreen of the above vehicle.
• On the date of contravention, the above vehicle was parked with no valid permit on display.
• Unfortunately, the mitigating circumstances cited as part of your appeal do not provide sufficient evidence that this PCN was issued incorrectly.
When parking on private land, the motorist agrees to abide by any clearly displayed conditions of parking in return for permission to park. This location is private property and is managed by Gemini Parking Solutions London Ltd on behalf of the land owner.
Gemini Parking Solutions fully complies with the guidelines set by the British Parking Association. Photographic evidence is taken with every PCN that is issued.
Payment at the discounted rate £60.00 can be made within 14 days from the date of this letter. Regrettably payments made after this period will be for the full amount of £100.00. Failure to pay the amount may result in further costs being incurred and may also result in Gemini Parking Solutions Ltd, reluctantly instructing a Debt Collection agency to collect any sum due.
Yours Faithfully,
Appeals Centre
You have now reached the end of our internal appeals process. Should you wish to make a second appeal, this can be done through POPLA – the independent appeals service – at popla website.
Any appeal to POPLA must be received within 28 days of the date on this letter. Please note that if you do appeal to POPLA, you lose the right to pay the discounted rate of £60.00. Should POPLA’s decision not go in your favour, you will then be required to pay the full amount of £100.00.
By law we are also required to inform you that Ombudsman Services provides an alternative dispute resolution service that would be competent to deal with your appeal. However, we have not chosen to participate in their alternative dispute resolution service. As such should you wish to appeal then you must do so to POPLA, as explained above.’
[/FONT]



I now realise that I should've contacted them closer the time. They should be able to summise my address however I havent confirmed it.


Do I have any grounds to challenge this with POPLA?


Any help would be greatly appreciated.


TIA


carless

Redx

yes, read post #3 of the NEWBIES sticky thread and draft a popla appeal

in future, appeal around day 25 as keeper , not as driver , NEVER blab about who may have been driving , it makes your case harder to win

you need to win on one legal appeal point , so especially insert the following points

NO LANDHOLDER CONTRACT
POOR AND INADEQUATE SIGNAGE
any BPA CoP failures
NOT THE SAME AS BEAVIS

and anything else that is relevant

POFA2012 would also have protected you if the appeal had been done as KEEPER and not driver

in tandem , complain strongly to the MA or the landholder and get a cancellation

also check your lease and what it says about parking matters (or doesnt say)

carless

Thanks Redx - Will read the post and give it a try.

carless

So I complained to the MA and am awaiting a reply within 48 hours.

Interestingly, the Gemini guys were back in the car park yesterday and he parked his van in a residents space but across the line into a second space. Didnt display a permit either. I took photos of him so may help my case with the MA. They also added around 10 more signs to the carpark.

Coupon-mad

he parked his van in a residents space but across the line into a second space. Didnt display a permit either. I took photos of him so may help my case with the MA.

Threaten to take it to the press and the BPA and DVLA if not cancelled.

You should also be telling the MA that your lease has not been varied so you refuse to recognise any permit requirement, nor do you accept the 'parking charge' risk (which is not a cost listed on your AST or lease agreement), nor does the estate need such a firm at all. An absolute waste of space scam.

Seize the moment to complain and make it clear you have NOT accepted the scheme.

Boy you shot yourself in the foot with ''I was parked'' in a Gemini case which is always a SLAM DUNK win for a registered keeper...not so easy for an admitted driver. Never do that again!

The_Deep

Read Jopson v Homeguard and Davey v UKPC, also about primacy of contract, the contract being your AST.


It does not matter that you admitted to being the driver, it is YOUR space and, unless your AST specifically states otherwise, you do not need permission from a PPC to park there.

carless

Thanks Coupon-mad

I sent the below:
[FONT=&quot]Hi[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I am writing in respect of the PCN referred to in the attached. I will be lodging a POPLA appeal should you not uphold my appeal. I have several concerns around the validity of the aforementioned PCN which I am in the process of documenting for my appeal however I have a point that I would like to bring to your attention.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Yesterday the parking attendant was back on site adding additional signage. Noting this and believing that the signage present when the ticket was issued, I began to take photographs of the activity. I then observed him leaning on my partners car to which the PCN was affixed last week. I challenged him and he questioned whether it was my vehicle and moved promptly. I continued to take photographic evidence as he quickly got into his vehicle. I note that he was parked in a residents space, flat 40, without the permission of the resident. He wasn’t displaying a valid permit given that the permit for said space is issued to the tenant at that property.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I then noted that he was in contravention of the parking notice: ‘All vehicles must be in a marked bay’ pictured below:[/FONT]

carless

Hi Guys - I complianed to the MA and they said they dont get involved in parking ticket issues. I emailed Gemini and they said that theywill not reconsider my appeal.
So my only option now is POPLA.

The signage seems reasonable at the site however, there isnt a clear sign on entering the carpark.

My main options I believe are that my Assured Shorthold Tenancy Agreement make no reference to requiring a permit to park.

The car is actually my partners car but we still havent received a NTK. Should this still be required?

We have no idea which one of us parked the car there as it hadn't been moved for over a week.

They completely ignored my points around their attendants contravening the stated parking rules.

Do I wait for a NTK or should I put forward my POPLA case based solely on the Tenancy Agreement?

Any help really appreciated.

Thanks

Carless

nosferatu1001

You use POPLA, of course. If the driver was identified then no NtK needs to be given.

The AST grants rights to parking?

carless

nosferatu1001 wrote: »

You use POPLA, of course. If the driver was identified then no NtK needs to be given.

The AST grants rights to parking?

The AST says:
The premises
The premises include all, or any parts of the dwelling-house, gardens, paths, fences, boundaries or other
outbuildings which form part of the let. W
here the premises form only part of another premises (e.g. in a
block of flats), the letting includes the use, in comm
on with others, of communal access ways and other
similar facilities.

and further down it states:
2.53 Not to store or keep on the premises or any communal car park any boat, caravan or commercial vehicle without
the prior consent of the Landlord or his Agent. (In order to avoid misunderstandings or disputes later, it is strongly
recommended that the Tenant obtain confirmation in writing of any such consent granted.) Such consent not to be
unreasonably withheld. The Landlord reserves the right to withdraw, for reasonable grounds and upon reasonable
notice, any such consent previously given.
2.54 Not to repair cars, motorcycles, vans or other commercial vehicles at the premises apart from general
maintenance, from time to time, to a vehicle of which the Tenant is the registered keeper.

It doesnt categorically call out parking, but infers that parking is permitted in the communal car park.

This doesnt make any reference to the Parking Agency or requiring any such permit to park nor any compliance with said Parking Agency rules.


Is this still sufficient for a case?

Loadsofchildren123

you need to get your landlord to do a letter for you confirming that his lease defines the demised property as his flat plus parking space 40 and that this is included in the tenancy although the tenancy does not clearly state this. Landlord may not have a copy of his lease, it's a lengthy title document. If he doesn't, a copy will be held by Land Registry. It would be worth you paying Land Reg to get a copy of the lease - costs about £20 - so you can show beyond doubt that he owns the parking space or has exclusive rights to it. Otherwise the PPC can argue that the lease allows the MA to introduce new regulations, including those concerning parking (eg that you must display a permit) and you won't be able to show otherwise.