Time to display permit

Somehelpplease

A PCN was issued for our family car by UK Car Park Management on 27/06/17. It was parked in a valid visitors bay, but alleged to not be showing a visitors permit. These are like a scratch card and are issued to the flat owners. They allow 36 visits in a three month period, you have to scratch off the current date and display in your window. If you run out of dates you cannot have visitors.

The PCN was issued 27/6/17 the keeper has received a formal demand dated 30th July (so within the prescribed timescales on your Newbies thread.)

Our daughter lives at the location, on the 9th floor, there is only one slow lift, which is often occupied so It can take a few minutes to get the necessary permit, especially if she is breast feeding. Previously I was told verbally by the parking company, that there was a ten minute grace period when parking. The PCN shows an observed time of 15:31 and issue time of 15:38.
I wondered if there was any traction in the fact they didn't wait 10 minutes. (I have no proof of this policy in writing just verbal.) Is there anywhere a "reasonable period" to display a permit?

The keeper has sent a letter based on the draft in the Newbies thread, asking them formally if the ten minute grace period is official, along with all the other points suggested. Just wondering what my next approach should be.

There are only seven visitor spaces on the site (with around 140 flats), aimed presumably at making you park in a non valid space, but the vehicle was clearly in a visitors space in the photo they sent.

The upsetting thing is this has made us think twice about visiting my daughter and new grand daughter, really upsetting...!

All advice taken with thanks.

Redx

the best way to get rid is to get the MA to cancel it

also check what is said in their lease too , because this could be crucial

check the IPC CoP about grace periods , but the accepted initial period is between 5 and 10 minutes , although this is not a government rule , so I think they usually say "a reasonable period" but the 10 minute rule applies to councils etc so could be argued in court quite easily in front of a judge but you wont find any parking company publishing their accepted practices

alter your last post to remove any hint of who was driving

the only acceptable words are

THE DRIVER

THE KEEPER

THE VEHICLE was parked...............

nothing else , so no "ME , MYSELF and I"

never disclose who was driving , especially not on a free public forum that parking companies monitor and take screenshots

Somehelpplease

MA is Managing Agent? Is there any easy way to find who that is? I contacted the housing association tht my daughter is in shared ownership with and they said it was nothing to do with them, so I am at a loss.

I have asked the question of the company, but won't hold my breath.

Redx

well , somebody owns the land , and somebody has appointed the MA , which you would think would be the HA who are both ?

to find out who the actual landholder is , you can find out from the LAND REGISTRY for a few pounds , then contact the landholder direct and find out if they or a third party contracted UKCPM

its hard to believe that the HA are part owners of the housing but dont own the car park surrounding their property

Somehelpplease

Sorry, I have tried to work my way through the thread and picked up some really useful advice. I am at the point where I need to reply to the County Court Business Centre and build my defence. Happy with how to do the former its the latter that I just need to get some guidance on to ensure I don't accidentally lose. My papers were served on 2nd October so I plan to respond by 15th denying the claim and triggering my additional 14 days..

My case is a PCN from UK CPM issued because my car was parked in a visitor space without displaying a permit. The PCN was received whilst the driver was visiting my daughter who lives in a block of flats. The permit is a scratch card allowing 36 days in every 90. When visiting you have to fetch the card, scratch it for the correct day and display it.

My defence is that they did not allow the driver sufficient time to display the card. The observed time was 15:31 the time of issue was 15:38.
The driver was fully aware of the requirement to display the card. We had been told verbally (on a different occasion) that they allowed ten minutes (one would assume with some leeway). On this day it took longer for various reasons
1) My daughter was breast feeding so could not buzz the driver in quickly
2) The lift was being held on a higher floor by someone moving stuff in
By the time the driver returned the PCN was on the cars windscreen.

A side note the wrapper states "Unauthorised persons must not remove this ticket" the driver was tempted to leave it their.
The PCN was issued on 27th June 2017
I received as the owner of the car a letter 30th July 2018.
In line with advice on this forum I responded 8th August using a draft letter format recommended on another thread...
On 30th August 2017 I recieved a letter showing my car parked without a permit. Thy highlighted signage (which I have subsequently read) which confirms the need to display a permit. It does not state any timescale in which to display the permit. Had I read this before I parked I would have assumed a reasonable time.
There then followed a number of DRP letters after the third and final which I responded to CPM reiterating my request to see evidence of their contract, proof of the timing of the photos, asking how the charge was made up and asking what period of time was allowed to display the permit. I enclosed a copy of my first letter.
Their response 30/11/2017 stated they had no obligation to respond to my questions and could not let me see a contract due to data protection issues.
"UK CPM is not prohibited to supply a copy of the contractor our client contact information due to the Data Protection Act" --- Verbatim words.
They sent time stamped photo 15:31 of my dash and another untimestamped showing a ticket under my windscreen.
The letter confirmed a "5 minute grace period" had been exceeded. First time I had heard that.
It told me I had to discuss any further action with the debt recovery company. I chose not to.
I replied 4th December requesting again the details of who gave them the contract. They repeating the above phrase.
I then started receiving Gladstones letters including three letters before claim (re reading the threads it appears perhaps I should have responded but I didn't.)

So now I need to start building my defence. Any advice would be appreciated.

Some back ground I am not sure whether it is relevant and should be included.
The area is low cost affordable housing and also has housing association tenants. The housing association have stated they cannot help.
I found the name of the management company and requested details of their contract with UKCPM. They have not responded.
There are 7 visitors spaces plus a disabled space for somewhere in the region of 150 properties.
My daughter has had two friends issued with a PCN one of which she paid, she cannot afford to but felt embarrassed. Her friend had slept over unexpectedly and they had forgotten to scratch the following (Saturday) day off the card. They came down at 8:00 to find a PCN issued at 7:00 am.
Another friend passed the "attendant" on her way to meet my daughter to collect the pass and returned to find him issuing a notice. When she pointed out she was getting the parking card, he had walked past her just a couple of minutes before, he said he would cancel it.He didn't. I assume they are paid per ticket.
One of the seven spaces is regularly used up by the concierge, who never shows a visitor parking permit, but has a "staff" permit, the signage says "Valid visitors scratch cards must be displayed in windscreen" is this setting a precedent?

I am still trying to chase the Management Company to see if the contract states states any leeway that should be allowed, but they don't respond.

I have pictures of the signage but cannot see how to add them.
I have multiple pictures of the visitors bay being blocked by the concierges car.

Any guidance gratefully received.

KeithP

What is the Date of Issue on your Claim Form?

Can you please post the exact contents of the Particulars of Claim box on your Claim Form.

Somehelpplease

02 October 2018

Somehelpplease

Particulars of claim

The driver of the vehicle registration AANNAAA (the "Vehicle") incurred the parking charge(s) on 27/06/2017 for breaching the terms of parking on the land at <address of flats>.

The defendant was driving the vehicle and/or is the Keeper of the vehicle AND THE CLAIMANT CLAIMS £160 for Parking Charges/Damages and indemnity costs if applicable, together with interest of £15.20 pursuant to s69 of the County Courts act at 8% pa, continuing to Judgement at £0.04 per day.

>>>end
The original PCN was £100

KeithP

Somehelpplease wrote: »

KeithP wrote: »

What is the Date of Issue on your Claim Form?

02 October 2018

With a Claim Issue Date of 2nd October, you have until Monday 22nd October to do the Acknowledgement of Service, but there is nothing to be gained by delaying it. To do the AoS, follow the guidance offered in a Dropbox link from post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread.

Having done the AoS, you then have until 4pm on Monday 5th November 2018 to file your Defence.

Loads of time to produce a perfect Defence, but don't leave it to the very last minute.


When you are happy with the content, your Defence should be filed via email as described here:

1) Print your Defence.
2) Sign it and date it.
3) Scan the signed document back in and save it as a pdf.
4) Send that pdf as an email attachment to CCBCAQ@Justice.gov.uk
5) Just put the claim number and the word Defence in the email title, and in the body of the email something like 'Please find my Defence attached'.
6) Log into MCOL after a few days to see if the Claim is marked "defended". If not chase the CCBC until it is.
7) Wait for your Directions Questionnaire and then re-read post #2 of the NEWBIES thread to find out exactly what to do with it.

Somehelpplease

Thanks, I have already saved those links before posting. I think I just want advice how best to word my defence, specifically if there is any precedent and what is worth mentioning.

I really appreciate the fast response KeithP. Thank you.

KeithP

Lots of Defences linked from that NEWBIES post.

Read several to get an idea of what is required.

Defences get posted on here every day. Read some other threads too.