Can I still recover from the situation POPLA appeal rejected

cigaash

Should have come to the forum a few weeks ago not just reading the guidance on the MSE website. I received a PCN from Civil Enforcement Ltd for parking at local health centre. I was legitimate user but did not key in my reg number. I have gone through the appeal route through CEL and POPLA stupidly admitting I was the driver and tried with mitigating circumstances.


Today I looked at the PCN, incident was on 18th Apr and PCN was dated 12th May, more than 15 days!! Can I still use this error to fight back when it comes to next stage, I guess now they will start to threat me with court actions, etc.


Help needed, please!

Redx

no , not if you revealed who was driving , because that negates POFA2012 protection which only applies to the keeper

if they try a court case , defend it , as driver , using a similar defence as others posted on here this year

complain STRONGLY to the Health Centre and insist that it is canceleld

also complain to your MP too, about these sharp practices , ask him or her to supporet the private members bill currently going through parliament

and ask why these health centres and trusts continue to break the NHS guidelines too (tell them about UHW in cardiff Indigo fiasco too , see parking prankster blogs)

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles

Umkomaas

The only next stage worthy of your attention is if court papers are issued. In the interim you might get debt collector letters, which can be ignored with impunity. Please don't come back saying 'Yipes, help, help, help, I've got a debt collector letter'. I repeat, ignore them.

The only things to watch out for now are a Letter Before Action' (aka, LBC or LBCC) or real court papers. These can be dealt with, with forum help (and the late issue/delivery of the PCN will be one point in an array of a number). Come back if you get these.

Two further points - have a search on the forum for other CEL cases, where you will learn that they do push court cases, but with a firm defence in place, they discontinue before it ever gets to a hearing.

The second point - have you complained to the health centre? They have the capacity to intervene and get this cancelled. Get complaining!

cigaash

I have faxed a complaint letter to the health centre practice manager and hopefully they are willing to intervene

cigaash

Practice manager wrote back saying he did try to help cancel my PCN but could not as I have gone through POPLA appeal route. Anything I can use to convince him otherwise. Presumably he is honest and I guess ECL informed him my POPLA appeal has been rejected

Umkomaas

Anything I can use to convince him otherwise.

I would write back to him to thank him for his lack of success so far. Tell him that CEL are litigious, you anticipate that they will be taking you, one of his practice's patients, to court over this.

You have taken advice and you understand that there is a contract between the practice and CEL. Ask him to confirm that one is in place. If there is, you are further advised that CEL need the authority of the practice to prosecute (use that word, it's not technically correct but adds more emphasis than 'pursue') patients through the courts.

Add that if they have signed (without due diligence) a standard CEL contract they may have missed this essential paragraph and have given carte blanche to CEL to mercilessly prosecute their patients, some of whom no doubt will have their medical condition much worsened by the prosecution.

If that is the case, you are resigned to be appearing before a judge in the next 6 months and if that is the case, you will need to call as a witness a senior representative of the practice, presumably the Practice Manager. On that basis, you are asking for any dates in his forward diary over the next 6 months when he is not available so that you can provide the court with these to ensure that there is no reason why he can't attend court.

If it is not him, you presume it will be the senior medical partner, if so the same list of dates from him/her. I bet he won't relish knocking on the senior partner's door to tell him/her that they're off to court around Christmas (hehe!)

Some of this is total bluff - but he is unlikely to know that and it will help concentrate his mind. He has been rolled over by CEL in saying the charge can't be cancelled as it's already progressed through POPLA. He is the organ grinder, not the freakin monkey for goodness sake!

The_Deep

cigaash wrote: »

Practice manager wrote back saying he did try to help cancel my PCN but could not as I have gone through POPLA appeal route.

Nonsense, write some bad stuff on their website. This is blatantly a penalty as no-one has lost a penny nor been inconvenienced. If it got to court the judge would most likely find against them,

cigaash

I have received LBA from CEL. It was dated 9th Nov and probably arrived last weekend. I was away on business this week so only picked this up yesterday. I think I have got till 23rd of Nov to respond to be within 14 days, so there is not much time left.


Basically I parked at local GP in April to register, as it was my first visit I failed to notice signs saying I have to key in my reg on a screen in the health centre. I only stayed for 10 mins and 26 seconds, so I considered this loading. Since I received the PCN I have appealed to ECL and POPLA with a letter from my local health centre but all rejected. Stupidly I admitted I was the driver and everything and only later realised I could have defeated easily as PCN arrived after 50 days after the offence date. I did complain to the health centre as well, they said they had wrote to ECL to cancel my PCN but ECL would not do anything as I went through the appeal route.


There has been no contact from debt collector, just this LBA from ECL requesting 100 GBP +40 GBP extra cost. I have read some of the ECL threads, in my case there is no mention of they will send further particulars in 14 days nor have they back dated the letter. How should I respond then? I'm kind of willing to settle this for a small charge say 30 quid, should I respond with a "without prejudice letter" with some robust rejection but adding that settlement proposal. I have copied a letter from this thread but don't know if it makes sense or not. Please help! I'm not allowed to share links but I have uploaded CEL letter to google drive


drive.google.com/open?id=1oxIZ6qhNGoUU5WrjceW_nY0hA33J19Cu
drive.google.com/open?id=1-xSIxrY7lVcyV73Y-rRW3EDAuuKVgxPZ
drive.google.com/open?id=1wVTsMPTIjJHBF_zdJEdSKJSvj1V1r9IB




Dear Sirs,

Thank you for your letter of x.


You have now sent a Letter Before Action. However, your letter contains insufficient detail of the claim and, again, fails to provide the photographic evidence, nor does it contain any mention of what evidence your client intends to rely on, or enclose copies of such evidence.


This action on the part of your client is a clear breach of its pre-action obligations set out in the Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct, with which as solicitors you must surely be familiar (and with which your client, a serial litigator of small claims, must also be familiar). As you (and your client) must know, the Practice Direction binds all potential litigants, whatever the size or type of the claim. Its express purpose is to assist parties in understanding the claim and their respective positions in relation to it, to enable parties to take stock of their positions and to negotiate a settlement, or at least narrow the issues, without incurring the costs of court proceedings or using up valuable court time.


I require your client to comply with its obligations by sending me the following information/documents:

1. an explanation of the cause of action
2. whether they are relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012
3. a copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim
4. a copy of any alleged contract with the driver
5. a plan showing where any signs were displayed
6. details of the signs displayed (size of sign, size of font, height at which displayed)
7. how the additional charge has been calculated.

I am clearly entitled to this information under paragraphs 6(a) and 6(c) of the Practice Direction. I also need it in order to comply with my own obligations under paragraph 6(b).

If your client does not provide me with this information then I put you on notice that I will be relying on the cases of Webb Resolutions Ltd v Waller Needham & Green [2012] EWHC 3529 (Ch), Daejan Investments Limited v The Park West Club Limited (Part 20) – Buxton Associates [2003] EWHC 2872, Charles Church Developments Ltd v Stent Foundations Limited & Peter Dann Limited [2007] EWHC 855 in asking the court to impose sanctions on your client and to order a stay of the proceedings, pursuant to paragraphs 13 ,15(b) and (c) and 16. I will draw to the court the fact that I have expressly requested this information since as early as [date or month/year of first request] yet your client has refused to provide it, saying that it will not do so until this matter reaches the court.


Until your client has complied with its obligations and provided this information, I am unable to respond properly to the alleged claim and to consider my position in relation to it, and it is entirely premature (and a waste of costs and court time) for your client to issue proceedings. Should your client do so, then I will seek an immediate stay pursuant to paragraph 15(b) of the Practice Direction and an order that this information is provided.

Yours faithfully
xxx.

KeithP

There are more up-to-date LBC rebuttals than that one.

Like here:

forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=73208118#post73208118

Also, you are allowed thirty days to respond to a LBC before a claimant can issue court proceedings. Keep an eye on that too.

It will help you if you can get up-to-date on the many CEL cases currently being discussed here.
Do not isolate yourself in your own thread. Read others.


Edited to add:
Is this related to your earlier thread?
If so, can you please ask a board guide to merge the two threads?

Umkomaas

Please edit the thread header as you’re not dealing with ‘ECL’, but CEL. There is no PPC known as ‘Enforcement Civil Limited’

Go to ‘Edit’, then ‘Advanced Edit’ to take you towards editing the thread header.

Edited to add:
Is this related to your earlier thread?
If so, can you please ask a board guide to merge the two threads?

Oh no, not yet another ‘think of a question, start a new thread’. It’s excruciating! What’s happening of late?

Redx

and edit it to remove any hint of who was driving too

THE DRIVER was driving (hint)

THE DRIVER parked the vehicle and didnt know about registering the VRM on a terminal