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Strange Leasehold/Freehold arrangement
Comments
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Is there a head lease? That would explain everything you've found.
Freeholder = Large Estates Ltd
Head lease holder (and management co) = Joe Bloggs Ltd
Leaseholder = Deidre
If that's the case, it's all fine.
That would make perfect sense actually. Pat's two leaseholds are almost identical though, wouldn't one state it's a type of head lease? Surely if there is a Freeholder and a head leaseholder it's a pretty awkward position to own a home under?0 -
I think what could have happened is this. Years ago when new houses were built they were often let on leases of something like 21 years and in that time the leaseholder was supposed to save the deposit get a mortgage then buy the house at the end of the lease. Some of the non bought houses under this scheme near where I live got transferred to the local council but it would depend on the council as to what happened to the ownership of the property at the end of the intial period. These houses were freehold but I can't see why it couldn't have happened with long leasehold.
If Deirdre couldn't save for the deposit it is possible that the lease remained with the builder and then subsequently got sold on to any other property company because by that time Deidre would have become a rent act tenant with security of tenure.
I can see why Pat might not know that Deirdre didn't own the house if they had bought under the same scheme.
Anyway if Deidre's name does not appear on the lease she didn't own the house and was renting it. The owners are the property company. Pat is not in a position to help Deidre sell a lease of a house that Deirdre doesn't own.
Some leashold houses in the Northwest have bits of land that are in different ownership. So the land that the house is on might be subject to one lease and the land that the garage is on or the garden might be subject to a different lease. Of you can have a freehold house where the garden is leasehold or the garage is leasehold.0 -
If Deirdre couldn't save for the deposit it is possible that the lease remained with the builder and then subsequently got sold on to any other property company because by that time Deidre would have become a rent act tenant with security of tenure.
Her late husband was a Bank Manager (so Pat tells us) and neither of them ever had children. The way the house has been decorated over the years as well as maintained, I wouldn't have thought money was ever a concern they had.
Pat moved in sometime in the 1980s. From what we have been told by not just Pat but another neighbour, Deirdre is was the longest serving resident left on the street.Anyway if Deidre's name does not appear on the lease she didn't own the house and was renting it. The owners are the property company. Pat is not in a position to help Deidre sell a lease of a house that Deirdre doesn't own.
This part concerns me, of course!0 -
You've done some good due diligence. Well done, and yes - alarrm bells.
I would hand it all to your solicitor (please don't use a cheap online conveyancing warehouse!), and ask for a full explanation from him of the legal arrangement. That's his job.
As you have spoken to 'Pat', I'd go back to her. Does she have POA for Diedre? In what capacity does she believe she is selling? (that's an easy, basic issue).
Has she access to Diedre's home & papers? As suggested above, might Diedre have made some legal arrangement with Joe Bloggs Ltd (equity release? selling a sub-lease)? There may be paperwork in the house.
Another extreme option if you suspect Diedre is being taken advantage of is referral to the https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/office-of-the-public-guardian
.......0 -
You've done some good due diligence. Well done, and yes - alarrm bells.
Thank you. For just a few quid and a little bit of time I'm surprised more people don't do anything at all to be honest!I would hand it all to your solicitor (please don't use a cheap online conveyancing warehouse!), and ask for a full explanation from him of the legal arrangement. That's his job.
I'm not going to lie, we've already instructed one of these warehouses you speak of i'm afraid! We're fairly happy with their service so far though, especially after we had to walk away from our last accepted offer! We're too far in to pull the plug on them now so I guess I'll have to work extra hard to make sure they work extra hard.As you have spoken to 'Pat', I'd go back to her. Does she have POA for Diedre? In what capacity does she believe she is selling? (that's an easy, basic issue).
Has she access to Diedre's home & papers? As suggested above, might Diedre have made some legal arrangement with Joe Bloggs Ltd (equity release? selling a sub-lease)? There may be paperwork in the house.
Yes Pat has full access to the house and has been maintaining it for the last year or two. She mentioned the sale of the house was due to Deidre passing the point of ever going home so I suspect the sale is because Deidre's savings are starting to dry up and we all know care home cost are crazy high.
Deidre sounded a little bit OCD actually, as Pat mentioned that she had found receipts etc from as far back as the 1970s. Sounds like she even kept a register of when she put new bulbs into light fittings and everything :rotfl:
Therefore, I'd imagine if there was anything to have been found regarding this, it would have been found by Pat by now. Unless of course she didn't know what she was looking at and simply thrown the paperwork away.
thanks for your help0 -
errrrr... but she does have POA yes......?0
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Her late husband was a Bank Manager (so Pat tells us) and neither of them ever had children. The way the house has been decorated over the years as well as maintained, I wouldn't have thought money was ever a concern they had.
Pat moved in sometime in the 1980s. From what we have been told by not just Pat but another neighbour, Deirdre is was the longest serving resident left on the street.
This part concerns me, of course!
Just because someone has enough money to buy a house doesn't mean that they will. When they first moved into the house they may not have had much money.
I have another example of this also in the North West. There was a mill. It built houses for its workers who rented them. Years and years after they were built the mill decided that it didn't want to be a residential landlord so it offered the houses to their occupiers at a huge discount. We met one of these occupiers who had been offered his house at this huge discount but didn't buy it because he didn't want to be responsible for the maintenance and the registered rent for his rent act tenancy was so low that he didn't want to spend the money on buying the house. The mill no longer exists. I have no idea what happened to the ownership of the rent act houses that were still occupied. When an occupant died or went into a home the mill sold the houses off so many of them are now owner occupied but I don't know who succeeded the mill as owner of the others.0 -
errrrr... but she does have POA yes......?
Absolutely no idea yet. I'm assuming so due to the way they have been acting and the amount of information we've received so far. We will give them a call and ask either way.
If it helps, the whole sale so far has been through an Estate Agent too. We've just by-passed the EA a lot purely because the house is around the corner from us and we started to get on well with Pat and another neighbour of the street.
In fact, that reminds me.. I did mention to Pat that it wasn't Deidre on the lease and she was none the wiser.Just because someone has enough money to buy a house doesn't mean that they will. When they first moved into the house they may not have had much money.
No, that's true indeed.I have another example of this also in the North West. There was a mill. It built houses for its workers who rented them. Years and years after they were built the mill decided that it didn't want to be a residential landlord so it offered the houses to their occupiers at a huge discount. We met one of these occupiers who had been offered his house at this huge discount but didn't buy it because he didn't want to be responsible for the maintenance and the registered rent for his rent act tenancy was so low that he didn't want to spend the money on buying the house. The mill no longer exists. I have no idea what happened to the ownership of the rent act houses that were still occupied. When an occupant died or went into a home the mill sold the houses off so many of them are now owner occupied but I don't know who succeeded the mill as owner of the others.
The particular area we're buying in is an old Mill and Mining area actually. So I've heard a very very similar story to that before. Thank you
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Absolutely no idea yet. I'm assuming so due to the way they have been acting and the amount of information we've received so far. We will give them a call and ask either way.
If it helps, the whole sale so far has been through an Estate Agent too. We've just by-passed the EA a lot purely because the house is around the corner from us and we started to get on well with Pat and another neighbour of the street.
In fact, that reminds me.. I did mention to Pat that it wasn't Deidre on the lease and she was none the wiser.
No, that's true indeed.
The particular area we're buying in is an old Mill and Mining area actually. So I've heard a very very similar story to that before. Thank you
Mining that makes it more interesting. The coal board sold off huge numbers of ex mining houses. Here is a link to an article in a Welsh newspaper about coal board houses. http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/tenants-raise-fears-over-houses-1913162
I know you are not in Wales but I don't see why the Coal Board would do it differently anywhere else?0 -
It's like a little mystery isn't it, & it's nice you're interested not just looking to 'renegotiate' down as a 'nervy FTB', lol
(Woohoo! G_M (partially) referenced me, I'm Internet famous)0
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