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Non refundable deposit
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Buttermilk17
Posts: 8 Forumite
I am a new land (small land) owner and wanted to get some goats! I saw an advert for a family of goats, a mother and twin daughters. I called the advert owner and asked about them. I said, I was looking ideally for pygmy size but as this is not a breed thing for me, just a size piece as we have small land and it is currently used by chickens and gardening as well with no barn and small housing, I'd prefer pygmys or some smaller sort of breed/cross. She said her goat was medium sized.
I said compared to a collie (which we have) would you say similar? She said - yes, probably collie size. I asked if she was friendly - us being new and again small land so not the area exactly to have free roam and grazing and we want pets ideally. And then about how she gets along with dogs - both of which were positive answers. So we said, can we come down to see them? It was a 2 hour drive.
We arrived and found that our transport wasn't ok for goats straight away...I guess we all live and learn. We had dog cages and the mother was too large for it by a long mile and anyway, it isn't legal as we found out to transport them. But the owner said, I have friends up that way - I could possibly drive them up to you in our van. And we said - well maybe that's an idea.
So we went to see the goats - the kids were very distant and reticent to see us, understandable, but disappointing. The mother only came with food. We found that she has a twisted jaw and no teeth left. He said (the husband) it is fine she is free with the purchase of the kids because they are still young. It was still uncomfortable for me though. She also was frightened of our dog.
I understand much of this can be overcome - they could be more friendly with time, they could like our dog with time, and they could get used to having a huge open space to a more kenneled existence. At least this is what the couple told us. So with the idea of not being able to transport goats ourselves and this wonderful opportunity we said, ok. My husband suggested a deposit so that the husband didn't have to travel 2 hours without any incentive, and suggested a 1/4 of the price, they said fine and wrote up a receipt, began to fill in some of the ARAMS paperwork, and had a cup of tea with us. We were scheduling a possible delivery 2 days from then and he said, he'd need petrol money, if that was ok. we said certainly.
During this whole looking at the goats, and even after we left we went up to their upper field with them to see their other livestock, I said to the wife some of my misgivings about how this goats life is going to change from a large space to a much smaller one. I also worried about her reticence with us, the dog, etc. and she said, because they're livestock with them - they don't spend time with them so if we have plenty of corn they'll come but to be honest, I've seen goats before who are raised friendly and much apart from the surface idea that I want a friendly goat for a pet, we have a piece of land that needs a friendly goat which will come to you, not be overly frightened by our dog and possibly escape at the first chance and not be able to be caught! We're not in farmland but semi-rural with fruitbushes on our land, dog walks right by the land, and neighbours!
We left about 6 that evening and I mentioned this to my husband on the way home,. I said, I am not sure - we wanted 2 smaller goats and we're going to have 3 large goats - eventually. They aren't particularly friendly, and so far don't like our dog, I feel this is going to be something we have little control on and in our situation, we need it - with the small space and the inability to have a large creature who doesn't want to be caught, escaping to hurt herself or damage property. I didn't think we could give her the home she and her kids needed.
We called the next morning and said, listen we're having misgivings about this. And explained that we wanted to give goats a good home and didn't feel this was the right match for them or us. The wife said, that's good you told us now, as many people tell us after they take them. She asked about the deposit and we said - we'll wait a little bit and you go ahead and re-advertise them, so you aren't out potential buyers, and we'll take a couple of days to consider this so that if we take on these goats, it isn't an impulsive buy but one where we know what we're taking on, and are sure it is good for all concerned. She said that was fine.
We did consider it and I messaged her a day later and said, I am sorry but we don't think this is right for us. I think there will be someone out there who will love the size of the goats and what they have to offer, but that isn't us and it needs to be right for those animals. I heard nothing back.
Yesterday we called to talk to them and spoke to the husband and he said 'you didn't think you'd get your deposit back did you?' you wasted our time! We traveled 2 hours to them with no information about the mouth, the size and disposition not being accurately described (and yes since that day we saw other goats which were called friendly and guess what - they were friendly - so there is a difference), and we wasted their time! They never traveled with the goats, they did sales on us, but ultimately if we had walked away and said no, that was neither here nor there as they wouldn't have been able to 'charge' us for the sales time...so we're talking 1/2 hour at best with the paperwork he filled in, but never sent (it was hardpaper not online) and then one overnight in which they took down the advert and the following morning relisted. I mentioned a few times to the wife that I was trying to assess if our situation was good for these goats and she never said - be sure because you won't get your deposit back! In fact, he said on the phone to us - he had to inform her because she spoke out of turn to us on the phone! He wouldn't let us get a word in edgewise - and when I started to get angry, he hung up and then wouldn't answer the phone. So no one, apart from him, has any idea of this non-refundable deposit and the government doesn't appear to agree either!
The advert never said, deposits are non-refundable, they never said it in talking to us - and certainly didn't when we suggested the deposit or the amount - said 'listen this is non-refundable' , the receipt doesn't say it...nothing does. He says this is common knowledge that deposits aren't refundable - in looking at the government's website, that doesn't appear to be true at all. It has to be stated, and even if that holds in the case of a stated situation, it has to be a small percentage and cannot be so that the seller re-coups the money several times over, and has to be something that is directly resulting in their loss of profit due to my cancellation - which they cannot other than 'we wasted their time' which I'd say, we spent 4 hours in a car, in total, with goats we don't have, because they weren't right for us...and their advert says nothing about the mouth issue!
Either way their terms weren't transparent, they also are not fair - in that they can and will likely recoup their costs by selling the goats (and even if they don't, it has nothing to do with us...they may be bad goats for people to buy). according to what I've seen, it has to be commensurate with what they sustained as a loss due to our cancellation...that is apart from it being clear to a buyer, and terms that do not lean, too favourably, with ambiguity, towards the seller. This is what I've understood.
they also advertise themselves as Private in their listing, but they are clearly - as we know now - a business.
So I'd love to hear from all of you about this issue.
(Text removed by MSE Forum Team)
I said compared to a collie (which we have) would you say similar? She said - yes, probably collie size. I asked if she was friendly - us being new and again small land so not the area exactly to have free roam and grazing and we want pets ideally. And then about how she gets along with dogs - both of which were positive answers. So we said, can we come down to see them? It was a 2 hour drive.
We arrived and found that our transport wasn't ok for goats straight away...I guess we all live and learn. We had dog cages and the mother was too large for it by a long mile and anyway, it isn't legal as we found out to transport them. But the owner said, I have friends up that way - I could possibly drive them up to you in our van. And we said - well maybe that's an idea.
So we went to see the goats - the kids were very distant and reticent to see us, understandable, but disappointing. The mother only came with food. We found that she has a twisted jaw and no teeth left. He said (the husband) it is fine she is free with the purchase of the kids because they are still young. It was still uncomfortable for me though. She also was frightened of our dog.
I understand much of this can be overcome - they could be more friendly with time, they could like our dog with time, and they could get used to having a huge open space to a more kenneled existence. At least this is what the couple told us. So with the idea of not being able to transport goats ourselves and this wonderful opportunity we said, ok. My husband suggested a deposit so that the husband didn't have to travel 2 hours without any incentive, and suggested a 1/4 of the price, they said fine and wrote up a receipt, began to fill in some of the ARAMS paperwork, and had a cup of tea with us. We were scheduling a possible delivery 2 days from then and he said, he'd need petrol money, if that was ok. we said certainly.
During this whole looking at the goats, and even after we left we went up to their upper field with them to see their other livestock, I said to the wife some of my misgivings about how this goats life is going to change from a large space to a much smaller one. I also worried about her reticence with us, the dog, etc. and she said, because they're livestock with them - they don't spend time with them so if we have plenty of corn they'll come but to be honest, I've seen goats before who are raised friendly and much apart from the surface idea that I want a friendly goat for a pet, we have a piece of land that needs a friendly goat which will come to you, not be overly frightened by our dog and possibly escape at the first chance and not be able to be caught! We're not in farmland but semi-rural with fruitbushes on our land, dog walks right by the land, and neighbours!
We left about 6 that evening and I mentioned this to my husband on the way home,. I said, I am not sure - we wanted 2 smaller goats and we're going to have 3 large goats - eventually. They aren't particularly friendly, and so far don't like our dog, I feel this is going to be something we have little control on and in our situation, we need it - with the small space and the inability to have a large creature who doesn't want to be caught, escaping to hurt herself or damage property. I didn't think we could give her the home she and her kids needed.
We called the next morning and said, listen we're having misgivings about this. And explained that we wanted to give goats a good home and didn't feel this was the right match for them or us. The wife said, that's good you told us now, as many people tell us after they take them. She asked about the deposit and we said - we'll wait a little bit and you go ahead and re-advertise them, so you aren't out potential buyers, and we'll take a couple of days to consider this so that if we take on these goats, it isn't an impulsive buy but one where we know what we're taking on, and are sure it is good for all concerned. She said that was fine.
We did consider it and I messaged her a day later and said, I am sorry but we don't think this is right for us. I think there will be someone out there who will love the size of the goats and what they have to offer, but that isn't us and it needs to be right for those animals. I heard nothing back.
Yesterday we called to talk to them and spoke to the husband and he said 'you didn't think you'd get your deposit back did you?' you wasted our time! We traveled 2 hours to them with no information about the mouth, the size and disposition not being accurately described (and yes since that day we saw other goats which were called friendly and guess what - they were friendly - so there is a difference), and we wasted their time! They never traveled with the goats, they did sales on us, but ultimately if we had walked away and said no, that was neither here nor there as they wouldn't have been able to 'charge' us for the sales time...so we're talking 1/2 hour at best with the paperwork he filled in, but never sent (it was hardpaper not online) and then one overnight in which they took down the advert and the following morning relisted. I mentioned a few times to the wife that I was trying to assess if our situation was good for these goats and she never said - be sure because you won't get your deposit back! In fact, he said on the phone to us - he had to inform her because she spoke out of turn to us on the phone! He wouldn't let us get a word in edgewise - and when I started to get angry, he hung up and then wouldn't answer the phone. So no one, apart from him, has any idea of this non-refundable deposit and the government doesn't appear to agree either!
The advert never said, deposits are non-refundable, they never said it in talking to us - and certainly didn't when we suggested the deposit or the amount - said 'listen this is non-refundable' , the receipt doesn't say it...nothing does. He says this is common knowledge that deposits aren't refundable - in looking at the government's website, that doesn't appear to be true at all. It has to be stated, and even if that holds in the case of a stated situation, it has to be a small percentage and cannot be so that the seller re-coups the money several times over, and has to be something that is directly resulting in their loss of profit due to my cancellation - which they cannot other than 'we wasted their time' which I'd say, we spent 4 hours in a car, in total, with goats we don't have, because they weren't right for us...and their advert says nothing about the mouth issue!
Either way their terms weren't transparent, they also are not fair - in that they can and will likely recoup their costs by selling the goats (and even if they don't, it has nothing to do with us...they may be bad goats for people to buy). according to what I've seen, it has to be commensurate with what they sustained as a loss due to our cancellation...that is apart from it being clear to a buyer, and terms that do not lean, too favourably, with ambiguity, towards the seller. This is what I've understood.
they also advertise themselves as Private in their listing, but they are clearly - as we know now - a business.
So I'd love to hear from all of you about this issue.
(Text removed by MSE Forum Team)
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Comments
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Looking after goats is entirely different from cats, dogs, rabbits...even cows. You are moving from domesticated to an entirely different 'system' of animal keeping.0
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Foxtrotoscar - yes, I do know they are different. I say that everyone - everyone - has to learn. And yes, I have had goats before...it was many years ago but I have and they lived and did well. Things have changed with rules now, but that doesn't mean I have no experience.0
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I am uncertain why we have gotten on to my care for animals...seems a tangent anyway.0
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You learn before you take in live animals. Goats are not pets.
Have you contacted the RSPCA yet?0 -
So I take it that filling a field with a couple of goats is not like looking after a cat.0
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Buttermilk17 wrote: »Foxtrotoscar - yes, I do know they are different. I say that everyone - everyone - has to learn. And yes, I have had goats before...it was many years ago but I have and they lived and did well. Things have changed with rules now, but that doesn't mean I have no experience.
I would know you had goats before how? Seems you missed that important point out in your post?0 -
ummm...yes goats can be pets. People do love them as pets. Sorry - not correct! : (0
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deposits seem a bit of a grey area but they certainly cant change the reason you gave them money from a deposit to charge for their time. The appointment was always free. But being right & getting your money back can be different things.
Probably your only option is smalls claims court.0 -
I'm with Buttermilk on this one, everyone starts somewhere with keeping animals and as long as the correct research is done and preferably also having people to offer support. A friend of mine has goats, when she started out it was purely as a foster home for a rescue. She had a small field and was already a dog and rabbit fosterer for the rescue, they had a goat dumped on them and she was the only one with a place for it to stay. She got help and advice from some local farms and small holdings and it didn't take long for her to get attached and end up adopting that goat and has since adopted a second as company for him.0
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Buttermilk17 wrote: »Foxtrotoscar - yes, I do know they are different. I say that everyone - everyone - has to learn. And yes, I have had goats before...it was many years ago but I have and they lived and did well. Things have changed with rules now, but that doesn't mean I have no experience.I said compared to a collie (which we have) would you say similar? She said - yes, probably collie size. I asked if she was friendly - us being new and again small land so not the area exactly to have free roam and grazing and we want pets ideally. And then about how she gets along with dogs - both of which were positive answers. So we said, can we come down to see them? It was a 2 hour drive.
New or not? Make up your mind!0
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