Boiler casing corrosion

Jacklx

I am aware that this topic came up years ago but it seems like it has now been closed, however here goes. I have been with a major supplier of energy for many years with whom I have a service contract for my Ideal RS360 Boiler. This was fitted in late 2002 when I was told there were no spares for my existing boiler which was installed when the house was built in 1984. My next door neighbour still has his original boiler and it works OK! Recently I had the annual service carried out and my attention was drawn to corrosion (rust) within the cover. I was told if this corrosion continues and a hole develops the boiler would be considered unsafe and would need to be replaced as there are no replacement cases available. No mention of carrying out a repair! It was suggested that a silver-tongued sales person should visit and an appointment has been made. But this all leads me to ask a few questions. I was told the corrosion is a result of condensation; now I realise that the combustion process produces moisture in the form of water vapour as this is clearly visible on a cold day coming out of the balanced flue. I also understand the balanced flue is sealed so nothing can escape into the sealed casing and hence into the room in which the boiler is located. So where is this moisture which is causing the rust coming from? Could it be a breakdown of the sealing of the balanced flue? Is the sealing checked during an annual service, if not why not? It strikes me that if the rust within the casing was removed a piece of sheet steel could be welded over the rusted area which would give the casing an extended life, especially if the balanced flue seal was checked and replaced if necessary. Now of course I'll be told that seals are no longer available, but nevertheless provided I keep my Carbon Monoxide alarm in working order this should cause no problem, clearly for rusting to have taken place this condensation must have been happening for some considerable time, and I'm not DEAD! Now of course we come to the tricky bit; I'm not allowed to remove the casing from my boiler which I think is a sensible rule as one often sees the results of gas explosions causing much structural damage to surrounding properties as well as total demolition of the property concerned. Might I be likely to find a qualified gas fitter who would be prepared to remove my casing, have it repaired and replaced or might there be a general agreement within 'the club' that repairs of the type I have suggested should not be carried out? I have come to the conclusion that wherever possible an owner should be persuaded to buy a new boiler. This I am reluctant to do mainly because I would have to have a 'condensing' boiler which would mean a smaller flue to replace my existing rectangular flue. This would entail fitting a new reformite type brick, new insulation block on the inside and all the time hoping my polystyrene insulation beads don't all fall out of the cavity. We are told we are living in austere times, but also in a throw away society. I'm 80, I've lived in austere times, we didn't chuck out a pair of shoes if there was a hole in the sole, we fixed it.
I haven't the faintest idea what 'Automatic Parsing' or 'Posting a Poll' means and I'm guessing that email notification occurs in the unlikely event that someone else might be interested.

C_Mababejive

Hi

Well i understand your situation. Have you checked directly with Ideal to check availability?

http://idealboilers.com/

I know the chances are slim but you may get lucky.

he problem these days is that Gas people are not allowed to Engineer solutions in domestic situations. Maybe 10 or 20 years ago, repairs of all sorts were undertaken and workarounds used but now, well if a new replacement part isnt available, it isnt permitted to engineer solutions.

Part of the problem of course is privatisation of the gas industry.

When the Fine British Gas Corporation did everything, they had firm agreements with appliance manufacturers requiring them to stock essential parts for many years/make them available. Now? well its a different story.

Stocking parts on shelves doesnt make money .

System

A quick check of the Ideal website shows that replacement casings for the RS360 were withdrawn from sale in September 2013. The question that I would want answering is ‘where is the water leaking from or getting in’.? Metal does not rust without water and air being present. It could be a leak from the heat exchanger or water getting in via the flue. I replaced an Ideal FF280 boiler earlier this year and the case was in pristine condition despite the boiler sitting in a cold garage.

Jacklx

Thanks for your responses. Yes I had checked the 'Ideal' website for parts, and Hengus has confirmed that none are available.As for moisture getting into the case, this is interesting. I don't think it is water in its liquid form, the rust is at the top of the casing indicating the moisture may be a result of water vapour from the combustion process 'Blowing back' into the casing and condensing. Sadly I'm a mere user and am not familiar with how the balanced flue works, but I'll be 'googling' the subject when I've finished posting this. I believe that the newer condensing boilers are more complex and have a fan in the flue. Might this have been included to ameliorate this condensation problem? It seems that I am not the only user to have had the problem. As for those qualified to work on boilers not being allowed to carry out repairs but only swap stuff, this doesn't surprise me at all, we're living in the 21st century. It is unlikely that this rust has developed only since the last 'annual check' which took place 15th Sep 2016, 9 months ago. Should this problem not have been addressed when the rust was first seen and the cause of the rust investigated? Should it have been pointed out to me earlier, perhaps when replacement cases WERE available? It seems that case replacement is the usual response to this phenomenon so I assume the gas service industry consider that whatever causes the rust is unimportant. What IS important is whether the customer can be 'persuaded' to buy a new boiler before the rust develops into a hole.Of course once a hole has formed there will be no option, repair is forbidden! I have a fiendish plan. I will have a 'Gas Safe' technician (not from my current service organisation) remove the casing so I can inspect and confirm the location of the rust. After he/she has left I will attach a piece of sheet steel to the outside of the casing, using an epoxy resin type adhesive, which I anticipate will delay the appearance of a hole. I am aware the casing gets hot but it is hopefully not in contact with any flame and I'm sure the compound I use will survive. No doubt someone will inform me of a 'gotcha'; "Owners of boilers are not allowed to attach anything to the outside of a boiler casing." I've just dreamt that up but something on those lines would not surprise me. In two days I will meet the silver-tongued sales person, it should be interesting. Watch this space for further developments.
PS 75 years ago we were at war, a Spitfire pilot returns to base with a few bullet holes in the fuselage. He asks the techs to patch them up, Oh no, we can't do that, we'll have to get you a new plane.

brewerdave

We had a catastrophic failure on our Ideal boiler after ~ 11 years. A couple of steel "pegs" rotted,allowing the insulation to fall inwards ,blocking the burner which resulted in the casing warping in the excess heat and melting the wiring harness!!! No repairs possible!:eek:
Prior to that, the drain on the bottom of the casing had rusted away -again no replacement parts available -but we made a repair by permanently bonding the metal socket to the plastic condense trap -made cleaning out the condense trap every year a major job tho'.
We contacted Ideal on both occasions -they were as much use as a chocolate fireguard.:mad:

System

Jacklx wrote: »

Thanks for your responses. Yes I had checked the 'Ideal' website for parts, and Hengus has confirmed that none are available.As for moisture getting into the case, this is interesting. I don't think it is water in its liquid form, the rust is at the top of the casing indicating the moisture may be a result of water vapour from the combustion process 'Blowing back' into the casing and condensing. Sadly I'm a mere user and am not familiar with how the balanced flue works, but I'll be 'googling' the subject when I've finished posting this. I believe that the newer condensing boilers are more complex and have a fan in the flue. Might this have been included to ameliorate this condensation problem? It seems that I am not the only user to have had the problem. As for those qualified to work on boilers not being allowed to carry out repairs but only swap stuff, this doesn't surprise me at all, we're living in the 21st century. It is unlikely that this rust has developed only since the last 'annual check' which took place 15th Sep 2016, 9 months ago. Should this problem not have been addressed when the rust was first seen and the cause of the rust investigated? Should it have been pointed out to me earlier, perhaps when replacement cases WERE available? It seems that case replacement is the usual response to this phenomenon so I assume the gas service industry consider that whatever causes the rust is unimportant. What IS important is whether the customer can be 'persuaded' to buy a new boiler before the rust develops into a hole.Of course once a hole has formed there will be no option, repair is forbidden! I have a fiendish plan. I will have a 'Gas Safe' technician (not from my current service organisation) remove the casing so I can inspect and confirm the location of the rust. After he/she has left I will attach a piece of sheet steel to the outside of the casing, using an epoxy resin type adhesive, which I anticipate will delay the appearance of a hole. I am aware the casing gets hot but it is hopefully not in contact with any flame and I'm sure the compound I use will survive. No doubt someone will inform me of a 'gotcha'; "Owners of boilers are not allowed to attach anything to the outside of a boiler casing." I've just dreamt that up but something on those lines would not surprise me. In two days I will meet the silver-tongued sales person, it should be interesting. Watch this space for further developments.
PS 75 years ago we were at war, a Spitfire pilot returns to base with a few bullet holes in the fuselage. He asks the techs to patch them up, Oh no, we can't do that, we'll have to get you a new plane.

Today, Gas Safe Registered engineers work to a vey detailed safety code:

https://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/help-and-advice/gas-safety-in-the-home/warning-labels/

My advice would be to get an independent installer to take a look at the boiler. If you fiddle with yourself, then you run the risk of an engineer disconnecting the boiler from your gas supply.

Jacklx

I had started creating a quick reply when I thought I should look at the link about labels, very interesting. Unfortunately this resulted in the loss of all I had typed so I have to start again.
I have made contact with a different gas service person . I explained my predicament in an email and have had a brief reply telling me that the recipient needs time to 'digest' the content. Perhaps I have inflicted a form of indigestion?
The chap who called last week and arranged a sales visit having explained about the rust told me that his firm would not want to get involved with the 'bricklaying' which will be necessary in order to replace the flue. This he told me would be up to me. This means I would have to have a qualified person remove the boiler before a brickie comes in to block off the holes, once the mortar has gone off I guess the boiler fitters can then come in provided they are able to drill the necessary holes (I am suddenly reminded of an old Flanders & Swann song, 'The Gas Man came to call'). I will raise this topic with the sales person who is coming next week, not as earlier stated, tomorrow. I will of course raise it with the other chap should he make contact once his indigestion has subsided. In view of all this and in view of my advancing years perhaps I might be forgiven for being reluctant to go in for all this especially as it seems a simple matter to employ a little 'Preventative Maintenance' to delay the appearance of a hole in the casing.
I have no intention of 'fiddling' around with my boiler which would entail removal of the casing, This, it seems, might result in a summons. My current service contract is due for renewal later this year, I have no intention of renewing it. I will make contact with other independent 'Gas Safe' people to explore the possibilities of having one service my boiler but if all are reluctant then I will simply have to make do without. I am aware that the authorities are at liberty to force an entry to my property in order to disconnect any faulty or dangerous appliance, but as yet this is not the case, I have simply been advised that a hole COULD form. I also hope that Data Protection rules inhibit the 'owners' of this forum from making my details known to any who might want to force entry at some time in the future. I understand that as yet it is only mandatory to have a service contract if one's property is rented to a tenant. Perhaps this is a failing, but if so it will require legislation to make changes which will of course reduce the risk of explosions resulting from unqualified 'fiddlers'.
I have looked into the theory of Balanced Flues and was interested to see that as well as with condensing boilers some non-condensing boilers also had fans incorporated. Might I be correct in assuming that the advent of fans was as a result of the boiler manufacturers becoming aware that the exhaust of a system without a fan could, dependent on wind direction and strength, blow back into the part of the balanced flue used for air intake? This exhaust will of course contain water vapour which might cause rusting. Might I also be correct in thinking that some more up to date boilers have a casing made of plastic, i.e. rustproof? It is probably assumed by the manufacturers that exhaust CAN make its way into the casing hence the reason for the casing to be sealed. Condensation will probably take place but run down to the bottom of the plastic casing and not cause any rusting.
Clearly the manufacturers of gas boilers are in the business of selling as many of these as possible, it helps their cause if a boiler can be considered unsafe and also helps their sales if fewer spare parts are made available to fix a boiler which might be assumed unsafe. Perhaps they should lobby Parliament to introduce a law that in the interests of safety all gas boilers must be replaced when 5 years old? It should be fairly straightforward provided a suitable contribution is made to the appropriate party's funding. MPs would pass it as they probably charge any boiler maintenance to 'expenses'.
There's a button entitled 'Go Advanced' I wonder what that means?