Parking Eye PCN - Two Saints retail park, Ormskirk

didactosaurus

Hi all. Received a PCN from P Eye having gone 10 minutes over the free hour - no ticket was purchased.

Used Tony Taylor at appeal my ticket - how I wish I hadn't as it seems he has made mistakes in the appeals (eg stating I was the driver when I am the keeper, not putting forward 'grace period' as main point of argument). POPLA sent a letter headed 'Decision: Successful' but then the body of the letter states it is unsuccessful!

Have now received an LBCCC from P Eye demanding £100 within 14 days.

On advice from Coupon-mad (many thanks), I've done some trawling and have drafted the following email to P Eye (key info redacted). Any comments before I send? Thanks.

PS I'll have to try and add the email in after this as it won't let me post???

Guys_Dad

Awaiting your email with interest!

didactosaurus

So, I can't paste and post the text of my email - 'Sorry, as a new user your are not allowed to post with links'.

What do I do?

didactosaurus

Looks like I'm royally screwed. The forum won't let me copy & paste the email text, classing it as a 'link'. Can anyone please help? I've only got a couple of days to reply before the 14 days on the LBCCC is up! Thanks

Guys_Dad

Remove any links that may be contained in your email text - or URLs.

If it is just text, then there is no way it can't be pasted.

didactosaurus

Found a link in the text body! Divvy, I am. Here goes...

Dear Sir/Madam

Re: PCN No.

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I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. I am writing to insist that you cancel this unfair, unlawful and unreasonable charge.

Firstly, I appointed Mr Tony Taylor of appealmyticket to act on my behalf and submit an appeal to yourselves - and, subsequently, POPLA. I understand that Mr Taylor has identified myself as the driver; however I did not make any such admission or instruction to him - I instructed him in my capacity as the keeper of the car. It seems that is not the only error that Mr Taylor made; he also allegedly failed to state the 'grace period' as a main point of argument in the POPLA appeal - although it WAS mentioned in the comments to your case file - therefore, both yourselves and POPLA are fully aware that the 'grace period' is the contentious issue. Unfortunately, I have not seen the appeals he submitted on my behalf and as such can only rely on the POPLA appeal decision letter.

Secondly, I would strongly argue that the POPLA appeal decision letter is inadmissible because the letter I received states 'Decision: Successful', clearly indicating that the appeal is upheld, but then the body of the letter implies that the appeal is not upheld; I contend that POPLA's inability to produce an accurately worded statement, in addition to their wilful ignorance of the clear points in the BPA CoP I shall expound upon below, is clear evidence that they are not to be relied upon for an objective, unbiased and reliable decision in this case.

Thirdly, the detail of the alleged breach: on the afternoon of

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2016, the driver entered the car park at Two Saints retail park with the intention of parking and making Christmas purchases in the stores on the park. Due to the busyness of the park, as one would expect before Christmas, the driver was unable to immediately find a space and had to circle the park at least twice, driving very slowly and having to stop to avoid pedestrians - including small children - before being able to locate a space. Having thus parked, the driver was then forced to walk almost the entire length of the car park to read the signage - which had not been possible due to the park's busyness and the need to safely find a space. After many minutes finding a space and parking, then walking across to and reading the sign, the driver noted that parking was free for the first hour and payable thereafter. As the driver only intended to visit 2 or 3 stores, the driver considered that this could be done within an hour from that point. It should be noted at this point that no ticket is given on entry to Two Saints retail park, therefore it is almost impossible for a driver to note the exact time he/she entered the car park - drivers will need to find a space first before being able to read the signage safely (this cannot be done safely from a moving vehicle in busy conditions). Whilst your ANPR can indicate the exact time of entry, drivers have no such reference to go on - this is manifestly unfair and unreasonable if the exact time of entry is taken as the starting point of a 'contract' to park.

Fourthly, the driver was a bona fide paying customer in the stores, spending over £120 in Argos (receipt available to prove this) and approximately £40 in Aldi (unfortunately no receipt kept). The driver thought that the shopping had been completed and had exited the car park within the free hour indicated - this is still strongly argued as will be detailed below.

Your submission to POPLA states that the vehicle in question,

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, according to your ANPR, stayed on the site for one hour and ten minutes. Neither your NTK nor the POPLA letter make any reference to how much of that time was spent finding a parking space, how much was spent actually parked, and how much time was spent exiting the site (which again took several minutes due to the busyness of the site with pedestrians/other drivers trying to find spaces etc. There was also a delay caused by an ambulance which was parked on the car park around that time - one assumes called to assist a shopper in the stores?).


The BPA CoP clause #13 adds two time periods as grace periods onto any parking time, which is OVER 10 minutes to depart AND a period to park up, read the signs, pay for a ticket and place it on the car.

It must also be taken into account the minutes of the Professional Development & Standards Board meeting from 30th July 2015, where it was formally agreed by the Board (of BPA members and stakeholders) that the minimum grace period would be changed in 13.4 of the BPA Code of Practice to read 'a minimum of eleven minutes' (URL removed to let me post).

Furthermore, it has been shown in Altrincham County Court (Case 3JD08399, where the driver drove for 31 minutes around the car park at Fistral Beach) that driving around a car park does not mean that a car is parked, and as such, an attempt levy a parking charge would not be correct. Busy traffic within the parking site the day of the alleged "contravention" (

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in a small retail park with crammed parking, and signage set well back from the parking area) forces drivers to spend a significant amount of time to park and pay for a ticket.

Please provide evidence that the vehicle in question was parked for the period claimed.

I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. Kindly respond with confirmation that this spurious and unreasonable 'charge' shall be cancelled forthwith, within 21 days of the date of this email.

Yours faithfully,

The keeper of the car,

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Guys_Dad

On the old POPLA web site, Henry Greenslade who was the chief assessor wrote one or two annual reports. In them, he specifically mentioned allowing extra time to leave site at busy periods such as Christmas.

Have a look at pages 18/19 here and add to your appeal.

https://popla.co.uk/docs/default-source/default-document-library/popla_annualreport_2015.pdf?sfvrsn=2

And current POPLA views are on page 11 here http://www.popla.co.uk/docs/default-source/default-document-library/popla-annual-report-2016.pdf?sfvrsn=2


Slightly off topic

"Incidentally, for ANPR appeals in general, would regulars please remember to quote this from POPLA on Grace

In an ANPR controlled car park where no statement on the signs indicates that the parking period begins on entry to the car park, as opposed to when a vehicle parks, we may discount the amount of time between entry and parking when calculating the grace period at the end of the contract.

This is because the average motorist would assume that a period of parking begins when they park the vehicle, and not when they enter the car park. "

didactosaurus

Thanks a lot, @Guys Dad .

Checked those links and there wasn't a huge amount different to add in - nothing on Xmas in the first one?

That last point you've included seems VERY on-topic to me - if I understand correctly, it suggests that in an ANPR controlled car park, they have to deduct the amount of time taken to enter and park, from the 'end' of the contract? However I'm not going to push that as I don't know what the signs say about ANPR/when the parking period commences exactly so may shoot myself in the foot.

It's getting sent now, let's see what happens. Fingers crossed.

Coupon-mad

They won't cancel it, so there is no point crossing your fingers. Not to say you should not reply, but it's all academic. I seriously would not have even mentioned the guy who mucked up your appeal, it's nothing PE will care about and people here would say: caveat emptor, basically.

Unless you complain to the Retail Park site management, and they order it cancelled as so many will, this is just going through the motions now, to see who blinks. And to prepare for a court defence, if you can't get the site agent to see it off.

didactosaurus

Thanks, Coupon-mad. What prospects do I have in court with my defence as outlined above?

I've tried to phone Argos many times this week but no-one answers. I can't drive as I had an appendectomy last Tuesday, so I can't visit in person until next week at least.

Ralph-y

try writing / emailing to Argos head office ....

It may help to try your MP Rosie Cooper

this is a copy of a post by Bargepole ....

"Some action at last:

http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2017-19/parkingcodeofpractice.html

This Private Member's Bill has Government and cross-party support, and stands a good chance of making it into statute.

The full text of the clauses will be published nearer the date of the second reading, but my sources tell me it's something we should support.

Now would be a good time to write to your MP urging them to support it."

let here know that there have been many complaints about this car park scam

good luck

Ralph:cool: