Received my salary twice?
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OP already said she promptly contacted both the employer and the bank and therefore, to my mind, has fully complied with what is reasonable to indicate that she is not trying to steal the money.Technically, once you realise there has been a payment into your account in error you must contact the bank/payor or could be charged with 'Retaining wrongful credit' under the Theft Act 1968 by not informing them.
I don't see that shifting the money to a separate account somehow nullifies this but if anyone has any specific legislation or legal precedent that states this then please go ahead and quote!0 -
I don't see that shifting the money to a separate account somehow nullifies this but if anyone has any specific legislation or legal precedent that states this then please go ahead and quote!
Rather than asking for people to prove a negative, do you know of any legal entitlement for someone to take money which they know does not belong to them and pay it into their own savings account, knowing that it is not theirs?
Clue: there isn't any such legal entitlement.
The money doesn't belong to the OP. She has the same legal entitlement to move it into her savings account as she has to spend it, i.e. none.0 -
Rather than asking for people to prove a negative, do you know of any legal entitlement for someone to take money which they know does not belong to them and pay it into their own savings account, knowing that it is not theirs?
Clue: there isn't any such legal entitlement.
The money doesn't belong to the OP. She has the same legal entitlement to move it into her savings account as she has to spend it, i.e. none.
OP has asked both bank and employer would they take money back..both have declined.
Really not much else they can do other than keep it safe for when someone decides they want it back...sounds a sensible thing to do.0 -
You're the one asserting that OP has acted illegally, so I'm just asking if you have any basis on which to make that comment?Rather than asking for people to prove a negative, do you know of any legal entitlement for someone to take money which they know does not belong to them and pay it into their own savings account, knowing that it is not theirs?
Clue: there isn't any such legal entitlement.
The money doesn't belong to the OP. She has the same legal entitlement to move it into her savings account as she has to spend it, i.e. none.
It's not you that's being asked to prove a negative but in common sense terms it's clear that OP obviously knows it's not her own money and is more than prepared to return it, so I can't see why temporarily keeping it safe from her day-to-day spending money should be construed as theft, but happy to be corrected if there is something specific that would implicate her somehow?0 -
“ Rather than asking for people to prove a negative, do you know of any legal entitlement for someone to take money which they know does not belong to them and pay it into their own savings account, knowing that it is not theirs?
Clue: there isn't any such legal entitlement.The money doesn't belong to the OP. She has the same legal entitlement to move it into her savings account as she has to spend it, i.e. none.
Originally posted by IanManc ”
Nearly 20 years ago Mr S received a £500 tax refund (paid via salary) that I knew he wasn't entitled to. He rang the taxman but was fobbed off with ' we're right'.OP has asked both bank and employer would they take money back..both have declined.
Really not much else they can do other than keep it safe for when someone decides they want it back...sounds a sensible thing to do. Posted by Samsung
We put the money into his ISA. HMRC still haven't asked for it back.0 -
You're the one asserting that OP has acted illegally, so I'm just asking if you have any basis on which to make that comment?
It's not you that's being asked to prove a negative but in common sense terms it's clear that OP obviously knows it's not her own money and is more than prepared to return it, so I can't see why temporarily keeping it safe from her day-to-day spending money should be construed as theft, but happy to be corrected if there is something specific that would implicate her somehow?
I'm not asserting that she has "acted illegally". I've said that she has no legal right to do what she's done. That's different.
You don't have any rights "appropriate" money that isn't yours.
I didn't say that what she had done "should be construed as theft". For theft to be proved then the prosecution have to show intention to permanently deprive. That can be done in a number of ways.
Here the fact that the OP has informed her bank and employer of the wrongful arrival of the money would tend to show that she isn't dishonest, but then to move the money to her own savings account is something she is entitled to do, as it isn't hers to move.
What she is entitled to is to have the money removed from her main account and returned to the person who owns it. But she's not entitled to do anything with it, and to "appropriate" it or deal with it as if she's the beneficial owner is the wrong thing to do, and could lead her to be accused of being dishonest, which is unnecessary and avoidable.
That's why I said she should put the money back into the account where it first landed.
There would appear to be little chance of her spending it accidentally in her main account as she says herself that she monitors the account every day.
You say " it's clear that OP obviously knows it's not her own money" so how can it possibly be sensible, justifiable or otherwise right for her to pay money that she knows isn't hers into her savings? It simply isn't.
I've been a solicitor for 29 years, practising in criminal law and specialising in fraud. Doing the sort of thing that the OP has done in taking the money and paying it into her own savings is exactly the sort of course of conduct that gets honest, innocent people accused of dishonesty, because the money isn't hers, it isn't her savings, and she had no right to put it in her savings account.
That's why I first suggested that she move the money back to the account it first landed in immediately. And that's why I said that people telling her that she'd done the "right thing" was lousy advice, because in moving the money she's done exactly the wrong thing.
Anyway, that's the last legal advice I'm dispensing on this thread because you're not paying me for it and I don't do freebies. :beer:0 -
Thank you, I knew you'd come round to my way of thinking!to move the money to her own savings account is something she is entitled to do
I can't speak for OP so was speculating as to her motives but in her situation I'd do the same, purely to earn a bit of interest while looking after the money for its rightful owner.You say " it's clear that OP obviously knows it's not her own money" so how can it possibly be sensible, justifiable or otherwise right for her to pay money that she knows isn't hers into her savings? It simply isn't.
I'm not sure it's appropriate to characterise this with words like 'taking' and 'paying', as these have unnecessarily negative connotations for this scenario. OP has transferred the money to a savings account linked to the current account (i.e. with the same institution) so it's not as if she's stashed it in some secret Swiss account!Doing the sort of thing that the OP has done in taking the money and paying it into her own savings is exactly the sort of course of conduct that gets honest, innocent people accused of dishonesty, because the money isn't hers, it isn't her savings, and she had no right to put it in her savings account.
....in which case I bow to your superior knowledge of this area (that's not meant sarcastically btw!) but still find it disappointing that you're unable or unwilling to cite specific sources to substantiate your assertions.I've been a solicitor for 29 years, practising in criminal law and specialising in fraud.0 -
....What she is entitled to is to have the money removed from her main account and returned to the person who owns it........
The banks will not reverse a transaction. The process is for the bank to contact the recipient and request return of the money. Once permission is given to then bank, the bank will then commence a process to return the money to its origin.
Regarding that discussion on theft, the 1968 Theft Act says "A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it".It goes on to say "A person is guilty of an offence if - (a) a wrongful credit has been made to an account kept by him or in respect of which he has any right or interest; (b) he knows or believes that the credit is wrongful; and (c) he dishonestly fails to take such steps as are reasonable in the circumstances to secure that the credit is cancelled."
I would argue that the OP has taken reasonable steps to return the money by a) Contacting her bank and b) Contacting her employer - as the most likely source of these funds.
If the OP is asked to return the money by the bank and fails to do so then there is a possibility that she would be guilty of theft.
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Technically, once you realise there has been a payment into your account in error you must contact the bank/payor or could be charged with 'Retaining wrongful credit' under the Theft Act 1968 by not informing them.
A person is guilty of this offence if
1) a wrongful credit has been made to an account kept by him or in respect of which he has any right or interest;
2) he knows or believes that the credit is wrongful; and he dishonestly fails to take such steps as are reasonable in the circumstances to secure that the credit is cancelled.
The Op has taken every step to make sure that this would not apply.
She has moved the money to safeguard it ( does not say she can not ) and has already informed the bank and her employer.
OP leave it where it is and wait. Someone will realize the mistake and ask you for it. I honestly do not think that the bank or your employer will give two monkeys that you moved the money to keep it safe. They will just want it back. As long as you can give it back when they request it ???? what is the problem.Happiness, Health and Wealth in that order please!:A0
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