Flying freehold - is it realistic to ask a neighbour to change the title deeds?

graboluk

I'm in the process of buying a house (offer was accepted). I have basically just learned today about the concept of flying freehold, and I'm extremely worried.

The situation is: I'm buying a terraced house which has a ground floor passageway. The southern half of the passageway belongs to the property which I'm buying and the northern half belongs to a neighbour. The rooms above the passageway belong to "my" property, the proportion of the floor area which is over neighbour's part of the passageway is small in relation to the total area of the house, say 10%.

Unfortunately, the title I got from land registry is extremely vague, it says

As to the part numbered 1 on the filed plan only the southerly moiety of the ground floor passageway and rooms over the passageway occupied with 666 Example Road are included in the title.

So for example it is not clear to me what about the loft space over "my" rooms - would it by mine or my nieghbour's? If I want to do a loft convertion at some point this could be a nightmare. Same with external walls of "my" rooms - right now the outside walls are actually painted by the neighbour up to the half of the passageway (i.e. technically he painted the walls which "enclose" my rooms).

I'm very worried because due to personal circumstances I'm not sure how long will I live in this house - perhaps 10 years, but perhaps say 3, and I keep reading on the internet that it might be hard to sell such a property due to lenders' policies.

So I was wondering about perhaps approaching the neighbour and suggesting a bit of land swap - I'd cease a bit of land in the front of the property and he'd cease the passageway. The questions are:

1) is such a swap doable easily even if both parties agree?

2) is there a legal way to assure he'd keep a right of way through the passageway? (it's the only way to enter his and "my" garden)

3) do you think there's a realistic chance the neighbour would agree to such a deal?

Tom99

[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]My view on your questions:-

[/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]1 – it sounds doable but I doubt it will be cheap or quick. Two solicitors plus two mortgage co's will need to be involved. Ask your solicitor.

[/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]You could ask the vendor to sort it out before you exchange contracts at their cost. If they see this as a problem with any purchaser they may agree. On the other hand if its been like it for a 100 years with no problem they may refuse.

[/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Would a title indemnity policy be available? Even if it is, would it suit your purpose?

[/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]If you want to go ahead anyway you can try a reduction in price. Your mortgage co would need to be happy with the current title.

[/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]2 – You would grant the neighbour a right of way through the passage. They might perceive this as a loss over their current ownership.

[/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]3 – Depends entirely on how helpful the neighbour is. Is the land you are offering to give up of any value to them? At best they might agree if you pay their legal costs particularly if it is a fair exchange.

[/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]If they think you are getting the better deal, particularly if they think it would facilitate your loft conversion which they might otherwise oppose, they may still agree but for a sum of several £0,000s.

[/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]I have been involved in two similar situations. In the 1st the vendor took out an indemnity policy as I was happy with the flying freehold from a practical point of view. The second case involved the transfer of a very small strip of land, it took months to sort out, the neighbours wanted £0,000s and nobody was in a hurry except me.[/FONT]

Davesnave

Firstly, you should have the title fully explained by your conveyancer, and if you don't like any of it, you can pull out.

Secondly, it's not clear if you require a mortgage, or if this will be a problem assuming you do, so cross that bridge when your lender is open for normal business.

Terrace houses with a 'ginnel' like this are common, but different arrangements may apply to the way they're treated.

In this case, there is no chance of anyone occupying or developing the area over which 'your' freehold flies, as it is a through route to the rear, so this makes the situation more straightforward. Your loft space is yours, assuming that it extends as far as the rooms below, but that would need to be checked.

Legally, almost anything is possible, but at present this house and the neighbour's have equal access to the passage and neither owner could exclude the other via, say, a locked door. As a neighbour, I'd be worried that handing-over ownership of the entire passage might, at some future date, make it more likely I'd find it 'temporarily' blocked, or difficult to pass through.

So, if I were your neighbour, I'd question your motives, even if you offered me a right of way and some other incentive.

Others might see this differently, but that's why hypotheticals arent much use.

graboluk

Thanks guys, just to clarify the situation: this is in north west ex council built, as far as I know neighbour lets his property to students. I don't need a mortgage, but I need to use all the savings of my life and then a bit more (hence my panicky mood).

So I'm not concerned about my finances. I'm also not particularly concerned about my own interactions with the neighbour. What I'm stressing over mostly is that

1) say in 3 years I need to move out (my situation is stable, but my wife is looking for a job after maternity break, so I can easilly see how we might have to leave). This is a relatively small town, and even without extra problems houses stay quite a bit of time on the market. So with the extra ff problem to sell I'd need to give say, a 20% discount (and this would be essentially 20% "discount on my net worth")

However, I'm slightly worried about the legal situation even if I stay there "forever":

2) I would be more confident if the deeds explicitely said "the whole building over the passageway" (because there are only "my" rooms over the passageway, and the loft over it, which as far as I remember is clearly divided from neighbour's loft with a brick wall extending all the way to the ground). I think any reasonable interpretation of the deed would be actually like this, but then why the f*** does it say "rooms over the passageway"??? What about the roof? (and since it's from 1920s the roof might indeed need replacing soon)

EDIT: Re point 1): Although there are a few similar houses on the street (it's a mix of semidetached and terraced rows of 4 houses), almost none of the ones with ff seem to have been sold yet on the market (on rightmove some of them have single entries from 2000s but with prices which suggest that they were mostly bought through right to buy), so it's hard to see how it affects the price. Perhaps the only one which has ff and was sold before on the market is the one I'm buying - the owners bought it in 2006, but they say they have no idea what ff is.

Mossfarr

I think you are worring unnecessarily, flying freeholds over the passageway between ex-council properties are extremly common. They usually extend half way along the passageway (ie your front bedroom extends over the passageway, your neighbours rear bedroom extends over the passageway- or vice versa) so impossible to separate really. Both my ex-council properties have them and I had no problems at all getting mortgages for them (both are located in the North west). The outline is very clearly marked on the deeds.

moneyistooshorttomention

At a practical level (quite apart from loft conversion as such) - where is the loft hatch to get into the loft (ie to use it for storage)?

In other words - I'm guessing that the presence (or absence) of that loft hatch might indicate whether you could use the loft or no. I guess there are houses/etc that have a loft that is definitely theirs alright - but no owner has ever bothered to put in a loft hatch - but I'd think it worth just asking the vendor (in a casual tone of voice) if they could tell you where the loft hatch is please (so that you can store your "bits and pieces" up there) and see what the reaction is.

Davesnave

moneyistooshorttomention wrote: »

At a practical level (quite apart from loft conversion as such) - where is the loft hatch to get into the loft (ie to use it for storage)?

In other words - I'm guessing that the presence (or absence) of that loft hatch might indicate whether you could use the loft or no. I guess there are houses/etc that have a loft that is definitely theirs alright - but no owner has ever bothered to put in a loft hatch - but I'd think it worth just asking the vendor (in a casual tone of voice) if they could tell you where the loft hatch is please (so that you can store your "bits and pieces" up there) and see what the reaction is.

Err....money, no one's suggesting there's no loft hatch, and if you read OP's post carefully, you'll see they have already seen into the loft.

Very few people have no access to their loft space. It's needed for reaching wiring, plumbing, evicting wasps and dozens of other things.

OP if there is a brick or block wall betwen the loft and next door's then it will likely go all the way to ground level, so which side of the passageway would it fall? If it's on 'their' side, there can be little doubt about whose space it is above the passage.....all the way to the Moon.

I think imagining a 20% reduction for something as common and minor as this is unrealistic.

Tom99

[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]I agree with determining the exact position of the dividing wall in the loft. It could be on the far side of the passageway or on your side of the passageway or even in the middle. It might look like a solid wall but actually be a lightweight structure. You might want to take measurements to be sure.[/FONT]

Cakeguts

The point about buying a house is that it is quite a good idea to buy one that suits the purpose that you want to put it to. So if the passageway between the houses doesn't suit you or you think that you might not be able to do a loft conversion don't buy it. Find one that doesn't have these problems.

graboluk

Thanks, I think I'll make the meaurements to be sure it is a s I remember it (i.e. all rooms over the passageway and all loft over the passageway belongs to the house), and ask my solicitor what about the roof and exterior of the walls (currently the exterior walls over the passageway on the neighbour's side are painted by him, which I don't like as it suggests some sort of an ownership "claim")

Winter_Phoenix

I would have thought that "rooms over the passageway" included the attic. It doesn't say, "habitable rooms over the passageway" and an attic can surely be regarded as a storage room?