Driveway rules with pavement when land is owned?

londonlydia

Hello

Question from my parents....they are trying to squeeze in a parking space at the front of their house, and have got two different answers from different bits of the council (two departments disagreeing with eac other) so far so wondered if anyone on here was in the know :S

Basically, they currently have a small wall up between the house and the pavement, and the space behind it isnt enough for a car. And so my mother enquired if they could basically buy some of the pavement from the council to make it enough room. In doing so, it transpired that my parents own the land that the pavement is on already, and the council only owns the actual road.

So one part of the council (the planning/ property bit) has said it therefore fine to make a drive using part of the pavement following this revelation, and has directed my parents to their contractors to get a quote to drop the kerb. Theyve also said that no planning permission is needed as it is an unclassified road as well. However, another part of the council (I think the highways bit?) has said it is not possible because there isnt enough room between the pavement and the house, although it's not clear if they realise about the land ownership aspect (they were written to weeks and weeks before this revelation and have only just replied).

And so, I wondered if anyone has any idea about what the rules might be in this case, and what consitites a 'pavement', as opposed to allowing just a right of way over the front of the house for instance. By the way, we're only talking a matter of a few cms on one side (the house is on a curved cut out), and there will still be a good metre of pavement remaining to walk on.

Meanwhile my mother will still try and get another response from the bit saying no regarding the land ownership and the response of the other department saying its fine. But lastly, does anyone know that if they do go ahead with the drive, if there could still be reprocussions?

unforeseen

Although your parents own the land that the pavement is on, it is still, I believe, classed as part of the highway.

The highway is normally considered to be between defined boundaries, one of which is your parents wall.

unforeseen

Also as they appear to be saying that there will be sufficient he councils have a minimum size for off road parking.

See https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5664151 where this has been discussed

EachPenny

londonlydia wrote: »

...In doing so, it transpired that my parents own the land that the pavement is on already, and the council only owns the actual road.

...However, another part of the council (I think the highways bit?) has said it is not possible because there isnt enough room between the pavement and the house, although it's not clear if they realise about the land ownership aspect (they were written to weeks and weeks before this revelation and have only just replied).

It is complicated Depending on when and how the road (and pavement) became a public highway it is possible for the adjoining landowners to actually 'own' everything up to the middle of the road. 'Ownership' of land a highway is built on is separate to the rights of the public to use that land as a highway. Therefore you can 'own' a piece of land, but not be entitled to do anything with it other than what any member of the public can.

So if the council has said your parents own the land where the footway is then it is likely that this land has become public highway through 'dedication' - it is still owned by your parents but the public have gained the right to use it as a highway. So for all practical puproses, your parents have no right to do anything else with the land.

The only way this land could be used as a private driveway is if the council goes through the process of 'stopping up' the highway - this legal process removes the highway rights from the land and allows the owner to then use it for whatever purpose they want.

Be aware though, a stopping up order is not cheap, and the council would also have to show that it was in the public interest to make the order, as well as consulting people who might be affected.

londonlydia wrote: »

And so, I wondered if anyone has any idea about what the rules might be in this case, and what consitites a 'pavement', as opposed to allowing just a right of way over the front of the house for instance. By the way, we're only talking a matter of a few cms on one side (the house is on a curved cut out), and there will still be a good metre of pavement remaining to walk on.

In technical terms, a 'pavement' is simply an area which has a hard surface. The highways authority would refer to the area reserved for people to walk on as a 'footway', as opposed to the 'carriageway' which is the part for everything else.

There is no legal minimum width for a footway, but 1.2m is a commonly used standard minimum width for designing new footways. Councils have policies to promote walking and pedestrian safety, so would usually be reluctant to reduce the width of an existing footway. The problem is if someone, say pushing a buggy, had to step into the road because the footway was too narrow and got hit by a vehicle - and the council had deliberately reduced the width of the footway - then you can appreciate the consequences for the council.

That, plus the issue of 'stopping up' the highway would make any competent highway officer say that what your parents want cannot be done.

londonlydia wrote: »

Meanwhile my mother will still try and get another response from the bit saying no regarding the land ownership and the response of the other department saying its fine. But lastly, does anyone know that if they do go ahead with the drive, if there could still be reprocussions?

There are various offences relating to unlawful changes to the highway, and taking a bit of highway for private use could result in prosecution, as well as paying the cost of restoring the highway back to its original condition. I've been involved in a case where a resident decied to move their fence about 2' onto a grass verge and thought nobody would notice

If they do not have a dropped kerb, and there is not enough space to meet the council's requirements for a driveway dimensions, then the council can prevent the driveway being used. It is an area of the law with some 'grey shades' - but if you annoy the council by doing something they have said you cannot do then you can be fairly sure they will find a way of stopping you doing it.

Without seeing pictures of the location it is hard to give you much more of an idea what they could do to get their driveway agreed to.

Annie1960

Can you speak to one of your local councillors who may be able to help sort this out and give you a clear answer?

londonlydia

Thanks all,

It's extremely frustrating because as mentioned, the council planning office say that my parents own the land, and that as it is an unclassified road as well, so we don't need planning permission to change anything, but must use their contractor for the curb dropping. It is the contractor who came out and measured to the wall - and then the highways department of the council wrote to us with the statement there wasnt enough room. However, the rule does state that the measurements apply to the boundaries of the property, which as mentioned is not where they measured from. This measurement was taken quite a while ago as well, before we knew about the land. In fact, it was they who told my mum to contact Bexley Planning office to enquire about buying a small bit of land from the pavement to do the extension to the drive in the first place!

It's also annoying as the pavement is currently just shy of 2m in width, and goes around a small crescent shape in the roadway which is used nearly all the time as a parking spot as it's offset from the road (but not exclusively by my parents, hence their want for a driveway). They've said that they will not be getting rid of the pavement or blocking access either, they just wish to reduce the pavement width slightly (we're talking 30cm at one end, reducing to 0 over half a metre....so a sort of triangle).

Even more frustrating is the fact that on the opposite side of the road, the house has has been allowed to put in a driveway space last year, and it has exactly the same dimensions. My parent's house is now the only property on the road not to have a drive!

londonlydia

Annie1960 wrote: »

Can you speak to one of your local councillors who may be able to help sort this out and give you a clear answer?

That's not a bad idea, thanks. At the moment my mother has written back to the highways department of the council to clarify the information we received from their planning department (why cant they talk to each other?!)...we await reply and if it is still unsuccessful we will indeed contact the local councillors.

londonlydia

Here is the rule on the website:


"It is necessary to check the size of the frontage of your property to ensure that a vehicle can be parked without overhanging the pavement.

It is an offence under the Highways Act 1980 for any part of a vehicle to do so and it is subject to a fine.

A hard standing of a minimum size of 2.4 meters wide and 4.8 meters deep must be situated within the property boundaries. If the hard standing requirement is not met, it may be possible to allow a vehicle to park parallel within the property boundaries, the hard standing must be a minimum of 4.8 meters wide and 3 meters deep."

EachPenny

You parent's case may be the exception to the rule, but generally planning officers don't know who owns what land. They might have looked the ownership up on the council's property records, or it might just be a case of crossed wires.

You won't really get anywhere until the ownership of the land issue has been sorted, along with clarifying the position of the highway boundary (which is not necessarily in the same place).