Brexit, The Economy and House Prices (Part 2)

Thrugelmir

gfplux wrote: »

That was over 30 years ago. Is the NHS better today?

People are living longer. Fewer people die at a younger age. So yes. Must be doing something right.

Conversely an ageing population puts enormous pressure on the system. Are there enough people willing to be trained as healthcare professionals to provide the demanding level of care required?

Filling pediatric posts is proving very difficult. As not an area people choose to work in.

GreatApe

Rusty_Shackleton wrote: »

Sorry, just to get this straight - you stopped working... As in left your job... because of the amount of tax you were paying? There werent other real reasons at all? Like family, career change, early retirement or something? Because under a progressive tax system, you can only have taken home less by doing so.... It seems incredibly unlikely anyone would leave a job and make themselves poorer because of tax, its a very odd and pointless protest.

Well I guess its a good thing that they'll be somebody else willing to take your job then! No shortage of people after high paying jobs, 40pc tax rate or not!

Him not working is a real loss to the economy, that someone else might be given his job does not mean no loss as the economy is demand driven not supply driven

I think there is a reasonable argument for the idea that more taxes should fall on consumption and less on income.

GreatApe

Rusty_Shackleton wrote: »

I just think youre being rather disingenuous. I think whatever reasons you had would have been just as important if you were in a lower tax band, and youd have taken the same course of action, simply because no matter your feelings on tax, to leave your job over it would jist make you poorer, that makes no sense.

For some people not earning more is totally acceptable because either they have low cost lives or have enough saved that earning more wont improve their lives much at all

I think maybe as much as 20% of workers fall into that group, could afford to quit and retire early or take a very long (multi year or even decade+) break

Rusty_Shackleton

Greatape, if the money is less important to someone then surely the amount of tax theyre paying shouldnt matter?!

Its only a loss to the economy if theres nobody to do that job, we have people unemployed, so a good job freeing up is a win for the person getting that job, and even better the person who used to have the job apparently didnt want it anymore - that looks like a win win to me!

Rusty_Shackleton

Thrugelmir wrote: »

People are living longer. Fewer people die at a younger age. So yes. Must be doing something right.

Conversely an ageing population puts enormous pressure on the system. Are there enough people willing to be trained as healthcare professionals to provide the demanding level of care required?

Filling pediatric posts is proving very difficult. As not an area people choose to work in.

Declining rates of smoking single handedly will have had a noticeable affect!

I think an awful lot of people want to be doctors or nurses, the problem is the level of pressure on these inherently stressful roles is being compounded by the government, for example, Hunts change of terms to make treat junior docs evening and weekends as 'normal' working hours. Then youve got issues like understaffing and violence against staff.

As for attracting people to the roles, cutting bursaries for nurses was an astoundingly stupid move. Considering the universally accepted importance of nurses and doctors, the government seems to be determined to treat these people with contempt at every opportunity. (wonder if that might have something with certain peoples hatred of the NHS and efforts to undermine in order to privatise).

Is it any wonder that many young British doctors and nurses go and work abroad, when they can gain far better working conditions and where their employers/govts treat them with far more respect?

The other serious shortage of healthcare professionals is of course carers, and they truly do have an appalling hard job, that pays peanuts, are given far too little time to actually care for their clients (particularly in domiciliary care, often just 15 mins per visit allocated)... Its not only hard, and thankless, but anyone conscientious must feel they are really letting down the people they're caring for, and through no fault of their own, simply the pressures of the system.

Rinoa

GreatApe wrote: »

The problem is, and I have talked about this elsewhere on this thread, its difficult to allocate true economic value by just looking at someones income tax payments.

For instance lets pretend there are no foreigners in this country. Lets look at bin men a job that is clearly vital and needs doing. Well they get paid about £17k a year and thus pay very little in income tax the family with a bin man as the bread winner is on first accounting a huge drain on the public purse they pay very little in taxes and get lots in services and likely benefits too

But how can a job that is vital for society also be a drain to society. Clearly things do not add up. The way it works is imagine every single bin man and his family dies today all of them English remember our model is no migrants. Well that is maybe 10,000 families now gone and 10,000 bin men roles need filling. Since we are at full employment the way that happens is 10,000 people with jobs elsewhere in the economy lose their jobs (everything from the teachers that were teaching the kids in those 10,000 families to doctors that were treating them to everything else in the economy) and will have to become the bin men.

I think a fair accounting would be that people on the bottom effectively push up everyone above them to higher skilled jobs and wages so some of the higher wages and taxes should be accounted to them. I would say a bin man although he earns only £17k and pay only about £1.5k in income/NI his actual tax construction is closer to £20k a year which is more than he earns

In many ways the value of work to a society is closer to the number of hours someone puts in rather than the sum they are paid. In this regard, low paid people, uk born or migrants contribute more than their payslips show. Simply put if you dont want the migrants to pick the strawberries and wait the tables and wipe the old age bums then our own kids are going to have to do that (rather than work higher up the pyramid providing the higher goods and services the migrants need)

I don't believe it works like that.

Either way, at a time when our national debt is costing us £43Bn to service every year, I don't think it's a smart move to give benefits and a free house to people who want to come here and wash cars or pick strawberries.

GreatApe

Rusty_Shackleton wrote: »

Greatape, if the money is less important to someone then surely the amount of tax they're paying shouldn't matter?!

It certainly doesn't help, the higher the tax rate the sooner its worth quitting your job

Its only a loss to the economy if theres nobody to do that job, we have people unemployed, so a good job freeing up is a win for the person getting that job, and even better the person who used to have the job apparently didnt want it anymore - that looks like a win win to me!

It doesn't work like that, demand creates jobs so the important metric is demand not supply
The number of jobs expands and contracts with demand.

GreatApe

Rusty_Shackleton wrote: »

Declining rates of smoking single handedly will have had a noticeable affect!

I think an awful lot of people want to be doctors or nurses, the problem is the level of pressure on these inherently stressful roles is being compounded by the government, for example, Hunts change of terms to make treat junior docs evening and weekends as 'normal' working hours. Then youve got issues like understaffing and violence against staff.

As for attracting people to the roles, cutting bursaries for nurses was an astoundingly stupid move. Considering the universally accepted importance of nurses and doctors, the government seems to be determined to treat these people with contempt at every opportunity. (wonder if that might have something with certain peoples hatred of the NHS and efforts to undermine in order to privatise).

Is it any wonder that many young British doctors and nurses go and work abroad, when they can gain far better working conditions and where their employers/govts treat them with far more respect?

The other serious shortage of healthcare professionals is of course carers, and they truly do have an appalling hard job, that pays peanuts, are given far too little time to actually care for their clients (particularly in domiciliary care, often just 15 mins per visit allocated)... Its not only hard, and thankless, but anyone conscientious must feel they are really letting down the people they're caring for, and through no fault of their own, simply the pressures of the system.

healthcare in particular can never be solved* it is a sector that can never have enough money or resources because we are mortal. Solving one cause of death or damage just leads to other causes of death and damage increasing because all causes of death must add up to 100,000 per 100,000

Heath care needs to have a number on it, a value for lives and a value for various pains and problems. If the problem costs less than that figure we treat it if it costs more than that we accept that at this point in our economic/technological development its too high a burden. Afaik this already happens nice values a year of life at something like £25,000 and recommends treatment for things that cost less and disproves of treatment that costs more.

The alternative is to put a value of infinity on human life which is childish and clearly stupid.
So I would say people should not need to talk about nurses or doctors or hospitals but of the value we place on human life. If you think its worth more than £25,000 per year say so and maybe the NHS/Government/Society will agree with you and maybe we wont. Of course the public is too busy/stupid to think into this and many seem to think money flows out the backside of the sitting government and they are evil if they dont do more. The reality is society has to pay and at every point in human history we have had to value things like life and safety. The good news is that as we have gotten richer and richer we have been able to value life higher and higher and that will likely continue. The solution to better healthcare is better technology




until humanity sheds its biological self

GreatApe

Rinoa wrote: »

I don't believe it works like that.

Is a uk born family with the parent as a bin man a drain to society? Do they pay more in taxes than they receive in benefits and services?

How can a bin man who does a clearly necessary job be a drain to society?

Thrugelmir

gfplux wrote: »

As someone also directly effected I sincerely hope they are right.

In what way can I ask?