Why do we fall? To learn to pick ourselves back up. (£26K+ DEBT!)

Loanranger

You ask to be challenged on your ideas... you have 530 pounds to last a month but you are going to Wales and haven't factored in the cost of travel nor food and general spending while you are away for the weekend.
Your accommodation is 126 pounds in Wales
That leaves a large hole in your budget. Even split in two which I presume it will be you still have travel, food, entertainment, drinks. You can't afford it.
You will leave yourself very short to live the month. This is not a good idea.

MrJester

Loanranger wrote: »

You ask to be challenged on your ideas... you have 530 pounds to last a month but you are going to Wales and haven't factored in the cost of travel nor food and general spending while you are away for the weekend.
Your accommodation is 126 pounds in Wales
That leaves a large hole in your budget. Even split in two which I presume it will be you still have travel, food, entertainment, drinks. You can't afford it.
You will leave yourself very short to live the month. This is not a good idea.

Thanks LR.

you are right, i'm at the limit of my budget by doing this. i am aware of this, and my plan is to generate some more income this month to cover it by selling things on ebay. i have a few higher value items left, i just sold a few which generated £200 ish but this is split between outstanding costs on my business account (around £80 a month) and how much I want to take in for my personal costs, as i will be ending self employment/self assessment soon once i have got previous accounts up to date.

so in some ways, i've already generated money to balance out the trip, but i want to over-generate some more funds so it doesn't become a problem.

at the same time, my weekly budget is generous in my opinion. i dont have a high spend lifestyle, and can go days without spending a penny. some days just £3 on bus fares. my weekly budget is £100. my aim every single week is to spend LESS than this. so i can top it back up to £100 (and pocket the difference for savings or debts or one-off purchases like this trip)

so, i completely appreciate you challenging me there. i think though, that i'm in the right state of mind for it. it was something i promised myself after i started earning a full time wage again, it has been a very difficult 4-6 months up to now.

but my commitment is to my debt. to saving. to being ahead with my money, rather than letting it drip out of me like a leaky faucet.

p.s. please stick around and continue challenging me so i can grow out of bad financial habits :P

Loanranger

No, I don't think you are in the right mindset yet. Selling stuff on EBay is not a certainty.
If you had a frugal lifestyle you wouldn't be in the mess you are in, sad to say. As for no spend days, didn't you only just do that for the first time recently? Recently you mentioned the spends on Glastonbury, the takeaways. Why the bike rental when you also spend on bus fares?

I recognise that you also have generated some cash from Ebay but you bought those high value things pretty much while you were already in a lot of debt.
I think you are in denial about your spending and how you can get it under control.
For a start, the trip to Wales should have been accurately costed before you booked it and included all the costs associated with it. Travel, food, entertainment, drinks. Then you should have looked at the total and asked yourself what you really should be doing with the 300 or so pounds it'll cost you.
The simple way to approach the debt is to do what I suggested to you about two years or so ago, spend less, earn more. Earning more comes from an additional part time job and spending less means very cheap treats. Not Glastonbury, not high value stuff and not takeaways.

I am not sorry to be so blunt with you as I can see that in the couple or so years you have been posting your debt has escalated from about 6K to 25K plus. So, sadly, someone needs to tell you the truth about your mindset.
There's plenty of advice to be had on MSE, the Old Style Eating For One board for example would help you.

System

I didn’t realise you were off to Wales! There are ways you can tone it down and you have been known to use this diary to discuss non-essential spends (which I think you’ll agree with me on)… Going to Glasto was a treat…. You’ve just taken your DMP, it doesn’t mean your life is over but it does mean you need to change – many of my clients who’ve had major debt such as yourself say ‘I am NEVER getting back in to that position again’ and their finances are squeaky clean and the most organised ones that I see.

There are things you can do whilst you get back on your feet. How about sorting your food habits out? I guess as we’re veggie/vegan we prefer make-your-own anyway in our house but having a huge batch cooking day doesn’t always have to be a chore… BF and I make soup, pasta, pizza sauce etc. together and play music in the kitchen so we make a sort of date of it, it’s not always nice being cooped up in the house – but it’s a necessary evil. We’ve not been out to the cinema or for dinner in a long time and whilst it’s rubbish when we want to go and see a film we remember that we will see it when it comes on to an on demand service we subscribe to for the cost of one cinema ticket a month. We set a limit of 1 takeaway per month and we get a good deal and freeze leftovers for another day. We use cashback sites for anything we do have to buy, we mend our clothes (I’ve sewn 10 buttons this week!) we own our phones outright and don't upgrade them when we have the chance now, I've learned a great deal from MSE. I’ve had to plan meticulously for 2 days in Kent in February well in advance and even had to send an awkward e-mail to my bosses asking if I can rely on getting my minimal bonus before I booked it – otherwise we wouldn’t be going. Putting your holiday off until next year (could you cancel the airBNB and speak to your GF about the situation?) might be a better plan – ultimately you’ll do what you want and we are strangers on the internet but you’re in a bit of trouble and going to Wales mightn’t be the best of ideas.

TBH it sounds like you might need to have a proper chat with your GF about both of your expectations, if she isn’t in a similar situation to you or doesn’t know the full extent of what’s going on then she will probably just expect you to go and spend that money for dinner etc. but realistically you can’t, you don’t have the money and you need to get straight with money. I’m sure she will understand that you’re in a spot of bother and need to dial it back. Naturally I don’t know the situation between you both but I don’t really think you should be the one moving given your finances, especially if you’re not moving in together any time soon and could potentially trap yourself somewhere you don’t want to be.

MrJester

A lot to take in. Will try and articulately respond to each point. First of all, thanks both for the feedback!

LR

• Selling stuff on eBay, you're right, is not an absolute certainty. Though I know which of my items are high value enough to sell easily and quickly. These I spend my time with, the rest I'll try with Facebook or get rid. As I said, I've made a fair bit of money already, I think it's actually over £300 in total. I've done this because I know I need the money.
• Clearly, my choices in my past have not been frugal and have resulted in a cascading effect to this point. I'm not sure I need further reminding of that. My talking of frugalness is a constant challenge and something I'm working to improve. My mindset right now is pretty clear, I'm in a lot of debt, and I'm committed to changing that.
• I noted about having a "no spend day" because I didn't quite realise it was a "thing" in the community until recently. I've had plenty of these, I just don't record them or even notice always, especially not here where I update once in a while or with big changes.
• Takeaways has been a big problem of mine. Travelling around a lot makes me get lazy and take an easy option for some comfort food. This I know, as I have mentioned it multiple times now which you have picked up on, and again is something I am aware of and trying to improve.
• Glastonbury was something I committed to a long time ago. Felt pretty bad when it came around and time to pay up the rest of the money for it. All in all, it wasn't as expensive as I had thought as I did it fairly cheaply.
• The bike rental is something I am still observing its usefulness, and value. I got it to try and use transport less, which it does help me do as I use it to get to work. Which is usually twice a week, saving £3 a day. 2x3*52/12=£26 saved a month. Some weeks I need to be in office three times in a week. So based on my math it pretty much pays for itself. But if I feel like i'm not making good use and getting value anymore, I can end it. Bus fares and travel happens anyway because I need to get to other places which aren't cycleable.
• You're right, I didn't cost up the Wales trip fully. I knew what it might cost me, though. It was within a reasonable amount range I could make doable. I wasn't pretending I could afford a holiday to Ibiza. The main cost is the place itself, which is sorted. The petrol will be split between us so shouldn't break the bank. And other than that, I plan to be doing a food shop in a nearby village and eating off pack lunches and homemade meals together. I'm there for a break from the city, and the scenery.
• The escalation of my debt so significantly was due to taking on an opportunity to start my own business. It was a poor decision financially, but it wasn't a poor decision in any other way. It was invaluable.

Overall. Yeah, I'm in a pretty bad position financially. Do I regret getting here? Somewhat. But for the most part, I'm glad that I have and will continue to experience this challenge in my life. I'm never going to live my life scraping every little penny into savings, so why would I do that with my debt. I'm going to balance my life and my finances as best as I can. But I'm still most definitely going to try and live a life in between.

So I appreciate your honesty, and offer you the benefit of doubt in your assumptions, as I know fairly well where my downfalls lie and I'm still going to try and live a life that makes sense to me and isn't all about doom. Money isn't everything, neither is credit, living your life is.

Sauce:

• Yep off to Wales. Yes as I said above to RH, I mainly come here for the hard times. I don't do a daily diary of every little success, so on balance it might look like there isn't any balance at all. There's plenty, I work at it every single day. It doesn't leave my mind, especially now I have the earning potential to actually start to solve it. Which is happening. I'm making big changes, every £ is to be accounted for and that is my main focus and aim, then work at reducing expend where I can.
• Yeah I'm always in mind with my food expenditures, working to bring down those costs. Preperation, preperation, preperation. I really like your idea of making food together as a fun thing to do, we have done that a few times and it does make for a nice evening.
• I could cancel the trip to Wales, I honestly could. But I'm not going to. I have decided it's something I want to do, and I'll work extra hard the rest of this month to generate money to allow for it. End of the day, my debt is in a stable place. The DMP is setup for monthly payments, I'm giving it over £300 each pay cheque, as much as I can realistically afford and I can't even overpay yet. Sure I need to get in some practice now before next year but we're on the right path.
• My GF is very understanding, she only knows the picture of what I tell her. When I say I can't afford things for the week, she doesn't expect anything other than we get some kind of time together. Most time spent is walking the dog in nature, or binging on her Netflix, and the like.
• The whole moving thing is an idea at this point. It could save me money month-on-month due to the cheaper rent available to me in a different area, the reduced cost of travel between me and her, and it would also satisfy my desire to be in a different, more rural, area. I'm trying to think with my head here: but if the numbers don't add up, then it wont happen. I'm not going to put myself into debt to make it happen. Right now I'm gonna do viewings to see what is available, understand the different areas better, and put a plan to start saving or making money to be able to do it with ease. Call it a side project.

Magpie100

Hi MrJester,

I've been following your diary and while I think you are making some progress, I have to see I agree with Loanranger that I'm not sure you've had your lightbulb moment yet. I get the feeling you are very optimistic abut your plans - for ebay, for example, or setting up a business - when what is needed is REALISM. You just can't assume that you'll be able to keep making money on things like ebay as a reactive way to raise ££ for things you have committed to beforehand. You need to make the money first, THEN decide what you'll do with it.

Also, this: 'My GF is very understanding, she only knows the picture of what I tell her' worries me. So she is 'understanding' but you haven't told her everything? Is that right? Does she know the extent of your debts? What worries me about this is that it feels like you are in denial to some extent. If you don't have to tell her the truth of your situation you can pretend it isn't happening. Don't you think you owe her the truth?

'put a plan to start saving or making money to be able to do it with ease' - again, I think this shows a certain lack of realism on your part. You have a lot of debt. But you don't have a plan for getting it paid off other than staying on your DMP. How will you raise extra money to 'start saving'? What is your actual, concrete PLAN? At the moment you are off to Wales, thinking about moving house and also thinking about doing House sitting. It's a lot of thinking and spending but not much DOING. With the amount of money you owe you are far from doing anything 'with ease.'

I appreciate you are thinking about money every day and doing your best to keep your spending low. But I have to say if I were in your shoes I would be getting a second job at evening or weekends. You are young, you're fit and healthy. I would get a side job and start to smash that debt total down. No doubt you'll respond and tell me why you don't want to do that, but I cannot see a better way out of your situation. You need to really attack this debt, not fiddle round the edges.

i don't want to discourage you and I hope you keep posting, but REALISM is going to be much better for you than optimism in the long run. I feel like we're for ever being told we just need a positive mindset and we can overcome any problem, but that only works when combined with a real, concrete realistic plan.

Good luck! :beer:

System

I suppose with moving unless you're going to a sublet or a private landlord situation from the likes of gumtree then any agency is likely to decline your request as you're on a DMP so may not pass credit checking. You'd probably need to really speak to them or the landlord to explain the situation. Remember if you're more rural you're less likely to use your bike and therefore it may be worth sacking off the scheme in favor of public transport.

Have you checked out usertesting? All you need is a working microphone (my macbook built in one works for me) and you can also do them on your iPhone.. they sent me a really good quality iPEVO camera to then do external recording of me using my mobile phone which pay extra. They're 10-15 minutes a piece and pay about 1 USD a minute, money clears in to your PayPal 7 days later.... They are sporadic but pretty much every time I log in to do one there are a few that I've been able to do these last couple of months. I do it in addition to my full time job and eBaying etc... In total I've made about $800 doing it... I don't know why more people on MSE aren't jumping on the bandwagon. If you just google usertesting theres loads of places you can do it.

I hope you enjoy your time in Wales, try to remember that you've gone in a few months time so if you fancy a treat again you remember you've had your little trip. 100% recommend cooking with your GF, great way to spend an evening where otherwise you'd have spent a bomb on food. Also do agree with Magpie100 if you haven't laid it on the line with your GF then do try to, it avoids her planning things in her head or thinking something may happen that won't. These things catch up with us, my sister separated from her husband when she found out he had undisclosed debt - she was planning on buying a house etc. and had no idea that he wasn't in a place to (appreciate you're not there with your GF but it'll help you both going forward).

MrJester

Good day. I felt a bit demotivated over the weekend after the onslaught of negativity I felt here. I think mostly it's because I feel misunderstood, for a lot of things. As well that, a lot of information is either unread, misread, or unknown. Some of which is fault of mine, for not being concise and clear.

Overall, I'm questioning the validity of sharing my journey on here any longer. Not because of the criticism itself, but what the criticism has helped me realise: that I potentially have a very different view on what "tackling your debt" does, or should, look like.

My view on debt is this: I will ensure that it is being dealt with to a point where it is stable and I can pick away at it slowly that aligns with the lifestyle I want to lead. That is a lifestyle which doesn't spend money on unnecessary things, and works hard mentally to limit spending in daily life when, again, it is unnecessary.

But here lies the conflict: our definitions of unnecessary. Spending a bit of money to take a break with my girlfriend for a few days is, to me, a necessary expenditure for my mental wellbeing.

Whilst some of your definitions of fixing the debt problem is: spend as bare minimum as absolutely necessary for survival, use all your hours to work to earn more money to pay it all off in the shortest time possible - this does not meet up/align with my definition.

I will try to find balance. Balance between every element of my life. How much I want to use my time to work, how much money I want to spend on things that I personally deem important for my wellbeing, and how much money I want to throw at my debt as opposed to saving some for myself to live in relative comfort.

The reality is, my debt is of such a level that I can't pay it off quickly with my current earning, and the fact the debt is now in a DMP. With it in a DMP - and some of you likely missed this fact - I was told by the charity I should not try to make overpayments until a few months have passed, otherwise the creditors are likely to take concern and think I am earning more than I'm saying, and demand more money and not do generous things like stop interest, or get aggressive with bailiffs.
So, instead, I'm playing for the long term game. I have to. So my focus is all on trying to improve my habits so that I: continue to earn a consistent amount of money, improve my spending habits of what is and isn't unnecessary, pay off debt consistently - all whilst still maintaining the ability to live relatively comfortably, maintain happiness and wellbeing, be well rested, and enjoy my life.

Not throw away 2-3 years of my life with constant work that it would take to pay off the whole of my debt. How realistic is that? It isn't, and I'm not going to choose it for my life. So please, don't continue to hold me up to this expectation. It is your expectation for yourself and others, not my expectation for myself.

I want to attack the debt. Disclaimer: Not destroying myself in the process.

Now, to address specific replies.

-

@Magpie100:
I'm always trying to be optimistic. Optimistic that I can fix this debt problem with commitment. Sometimes my optimism flows over into other areas and can be misguided. I'm a feet first kind of person, and sometimes it's to my downfall. I'm under no illusions. But I prefer to be exactly this way. Passionate, optimistic, positive.

My lightbulb moment is that I'm in a lot of debt. I take it seriously, but under my definition of what is necessary and what is not, my life enjoyment does not fall in the latter (unnecessary).

I knew my plan for this trip to Wales. I also knew that I had high value items that would pay for it. This has occurred, and there is no problem. My budget for my wage is carefully planned out for the entire month. I probably chose unwise words previously in explaining this, I was being optimistic stating that I had money for this trip even without extra money coming in; but I knew additional money was coming in. And it has, and here we are, I'm still in front with money. As planned. Can we drop this now?

The whole thing with my girlfriend, I feel it just comes down to me not explaining it very well. So for clarity: She knows very well I am in a lot of debt, she has no expectations of me in spending money unnecessarily and is extremely supportive in that regard, we spend our time being together as priority; not spending money. We find much joy in nature, in free museums, in binge watching Netflix and NowTV (which she has paid for). We are 100% open and honest with one another, it is the foundation block and consistent important factor of our relationship.

Taking a trip to Wales is based on a mutual joy for the outdoors, and based on both our desires to 'get away for a bit'. We both deserve it, so we're doing it. And it isn't costing us a fortune, either.

Can you please explain to me how going through the stress of getting a DMP setup, is not done by acting upon some kind of plan? As explained earlier, I can't overpay on this DMP for a while. It would be foolish to, also, at this time. The creditors want to see consistent payment coming into them for now.

My plans (both financially and life as they feed into each other) are: 1. to be consistent with the DMP, be REALISTIC by ensuring I can always make this payment and don't fall back into being unable to pay towards it (rushing to throw money at a debt and then short changing yourself is a quick fire way into needing credit once again, I know this, I have learned this for myself, I am applying a countermeasure) 2. try to move home for a) cheaper rent b) less travel costs (and other life reasons but you guys don't seem to care about that very much) 3. pay off and finish the course i am doing in my free time which will then hopefully bring further income and of course 4. try to improve my spending habits, reduce outgoings of all kinds and 5. enjoy my life and my youth whilst i still have it

My mentions of other ideas like house sitting were just that; an idea. I threw it out there to many people, many many people, and received really great advice from people who have done similar things and the pitfalls that can ensue. I decided it wasn't right for me.

Brings me to moving home as a topic point: There seems to be a lot of frustration that this would cost me a lot of money. I can tell you for certain it would not. I have moved around London enough times to know the pitfalls and where the costs lie. If I was to move, the costs would be 1. deposit (which would then be refunded to me once I receive my deposit back from previous tenancy, ergo cost = £0, and my GF kindly offered to up front this payment and wait the couple weeks and I'd give her it straight back from my previous deposit) 2. the first months rent up front; this could be challenging but entirely depends on when i leave my tenancy and the agreement i can make with the new tenancy. again, if the numbers don't add up or make this possible it wont happen 3. a van hire and a man HOWEVER my GF once again rises to the occasion as she drives and the small amount of possessions I own could fit into a car, failing that her father can borrow vans from his work without issue so because of their great generosity I would save money other than need to buy them a takeaway as a thank you or something like that!

I know full well I am far away from doing anything 'with ease', and I also know it will be like that for some time. So I'm making small long term adjustments, as explained before, than trying to burn myself out throwing everything at it (of which is limited anyway).

I appreciate you believe that 'tackling' the debt is by getting a second job and working away all hours of the day, but that is not the way I am going to do it. And I don't need or want to give you any excuses, because I don't need any. It's my choice not to throw away my life experiences because of a debt problem. The debt will be handled side-by-side my life, neither will overtake the other, and to me that is the key to making this a long-term commitment for change. The 'situation' is going nowhere fast, whether I take on 2 jobs or 3 jobs, and so I reject this idea that this is the solution that is going to make it go away. Tell me how REALISM works its way under your advice.

@sauce
You're correct, the only moving that could happen is with a sublet. Any agent will run a credit ref, which I will not pass to their acceptance. I prefer sublets massively, and am currently in one that has worked wonderfully, and the same can happen again. A credit ref can't be done without your permission anyway, so I'd know fairly quickly if this was going to become a problem.

It is possible for me to do this, I had a viewing just the other day which seemed almost perfect! (Cheaper rent, decent location, great housemate - all on a sublet). You are right too, being more rural will mean a dependency on certain things depending on what is within easy reach. I'd review the travel costs (oyster, bike rental) when the time came.

I have signed up to usertesting but every time I finished a survey I'd never get anything come of it, so it feels like a waste of time typically! I know i need to update my profile on it as my job/circumstances have changed so we'll see if that helps. I'd be good at the testing, too, as I work in tech, but just nothing has come about yet.

Thanks for that sauce, even if you say it begrudgingly , yes I'm not trying to go away every month. The last time I went on a "holiday" abroad was in 2009, the last time I got on a plane was to Scotland and back same day for work last year. I don't believe in getting away from it all the time, I believe in making my life better where it is so I don't need to do that; but sometimes I need a break like everyone does, and want to tick something off the bucket list (climb Snowdon!) and if I can do all that at one and cheaply then great.

As I said above sauce, yeah me and GF are 100% clear and honest in every way; I think I just miscommunicated this with you and it has given a bad representation of her, and us. We discussed this very forum topic situation at length at the weekend, and she is massively supportive. She knows the situation, she knows I have big limitations. Hell she offers to pay for things all the time but I have too much pride to let her, and I keep a note of what I owe her because I believe in paying your debts no matter what they are.

And there ends this mammoth of a post. I'd love people to be honest with me now: does your definition of 'dealing with the debt', 'necessary', 'living your life' grossly differ from my own? If so, hey that's just fine, I'll take my leave. 'Cause if we can't be on the same page of understanding (at least) then there isn't much value to this for either of us :beer:

redofromstart

Hi MrJester, didn't want to read and run. I think each of has to decide our own priorities, and the suggestions that others make are just that, suggestions. Those suggestions are certainly intended as constructive but it can be hard to see that and not feel defensive when you are on the receiving end.

You have decided your financial priority for the month, and it s about tweaking everything else to support that. Perhaps you should set your self a challenge based on a per day spend after those projected costs are incurred - set a discretionary spend per day target and any rollover is the nice bits when you are away fund? I find those challenges to be quite positive and motivating - no takeaways all month, equals a nice picnic with the gf, etc.

hope this helps!

MrJester

Heyo redo.

Mmhm, I think in these recent posts people weren't quite providing suggestions as much as they were judging under their own definitions. I'm all for feedback, but there was a lot of holes and in part this was due to my lack of clear explanations - hopefully that is now not the case. If there is disagreement around morality and expectations of the situation, then what will be will be, and readers should consider whether they want to read any further.

"If you don't like me at my worst, then you don't deserve to be here at my best"

I think you are answering for others there, redo, if you read back a few posts I'm sure you might want to rethink whether some of the replies were 'constructive'. Of course it is natural to get defensive, I'm not new to the concept, and push others constantly to challenge their own views always. I challenge my own, but at this moment in time I disagree pretty strongly with what has been presented; in large part due to its lack of validity and constructiveness.

We (everyone participated) can argue over semantics all day long, but the crux is this: If you don't like what you read, maybe consider not reading anymore. No hard feelings.

Can I just make it apparent, my financial priority for the month has been to make my first DMP payment and ensure I have enough funds for the rest of the month. That as it stands is well and true. My second preference is to make enough funds available for this trip.

But yes, I am already setting myself a weekly challenge, similar to your rollover idea. I think I spoke about it previously: I set a weekly budget for £100 and I aim to not spend it (all). At the end of the week, it gets topped back up to £100.

E.g. Week 1 I spend £60 of budget. I then top up another £60 to begin Week 2. That leaves £40 unspent from my budget, and to choose what to do with at the end of the month once all has accumulated.

This should hopefully mean that by the time I go away, towards the end of the month, I will have already accumulated this extras to ensure I am well in front with money and spending for the trip. In fact, this has struck a lightbulb to keep a note of how much I saved each week. Making a goal out of it, see how much I can not spend each week, then know the total I have to play with (that is, an occasional big spend but mainly savings and paying off other F&F debts) come the end of the month.