Boiler question - Losing deposit

Hopetobedebtfree

macman wrote: »

Make and model of the boiler? A pump is not an expensive part, and fitting it might take a couple of hours. £1,000 would buy a new budget boiler!

Worcester Bosch 42 cdi

gingercordial

Did the landlord provide you with an instruction manual? Can you find one on the internet for that model, and what does it say (or not say) about switching it off?

We had almost exactly the same experience as you a year ago. We switched the boiler off at the wall with the switch handily provided for this, and it was off for a day and a half in total. Landlord then tried to claim for the cost of a new boiler, funnily enough at about the same time as the various other residents of the 12-year-old building were all starting to replace theirs for efficiency reasons and when he and his family were moving back in themselves... He wanted £2k from us for this (being in London, six weeks' deposit was just over this amount).

The landlord even got an electrician to write a report saying switching it off was against the manufacturer's instructions - it also neglected to say in any way that the boiler couldn't be repaired. After a few rounds of e-mails back and forth with us asking for our money back and him spouting all sorts of legalese (he was a lawyer) about negligence, causation etc, we raised a dispute through TDS to get it back. The landlord has to provide evidence first and he sent in his electrician's report plus a quote for a new boiler. He did not provide any instructions backing up his pet electrician's claims, nor any other evidence that a full boiler replacement (rather than a repair) was necessary.

We responded by providing the manufacturer's instructions from the internet, citing the parts that referred to switching it off. In fact these instructions said it wasn't advisable to leave it off for months at a time, but nothing that 36 hours would be a problem. We also confirmed that we had never been given an instruction not to switch it off, and happily one of our photos of the boiler cupboard showed the relevant switch not in any way labelled as not to be touched. Our check-in inventory even said that for appliance instructions we were to obtain these ourselves from the internet, so we sent these too as further proof that we had done as we were told. There was also a case in the TDS archive of published cases saying that the landlord is expected to have better knowledge of the appliances than the tenant and it is his responsibility to provide specific instructions where necessary, so we quoted this.

The TDS ruled in our favour in full on the basis that we acted in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions and had not been given any other instructions over and above this by the landlord. They referred to the fact that his electrician's report said it was contrary to the instructions but that no evidence of such instructions was attached (it didn't outright say this was a lie but...), whereas we had provided a set that said switching it off was OK. We were not expected to do anything else. We received our entire deposit back and the landlord's (assumed) desire for a shiny new boiler on our dime was thwarted. I still harbour some resentment that he even tried.

Best of luck!

n217970

This claim is utter rubish, you can't break a pump by turning the electricity off unless it was very badly corrorded inside and about to fail anyway. Pretty much the only thing electricity (or sudden lack of) could damage on a boiler would be the mainboard.

teddysmum

We have a WB and I was a little worried when it was fitted as it had an obvious power connection, to a plug socket, that the previous one did not have ,besides a wi fi thermostat.


I asked the fitter about switching off (eg power cut or kitchen refit) and he advised that ,when the power was on again, I should toggle the thermostat's current setting, a tiny bit up or down, to re-establish the timing.


I wonder whether this boiler is 'not working' because this was not done, when the power was back on.

C.C.L.

I would ask for an independant survey of the boiler by a gas safe registered fitter. Then get a report from him.If the LL refuses, then you can inform TDS of this.

Hopetobedebtfree

gingercordial wrote: »

Did the landlord provide you with an instruction manual? Can you find one on the internet for that model, and what does it say (or not say) about switching it off?

We had almost exactly the same experience as you a year ago. We switched the boiler off at the wall with the switch handily provided for this, and it was off for a day and a half in total. Landlord then tried to claim for the cost of a new boiler, funnily enough at about the same time as the various other residents of the 12-year-old building were all starting to replace theirs for efficiency reasons and when he and his family were moving back in themselves... He wanted £2k from us for this (being in London, six weeks' deposit was just over this amount).

The landlord even got an electrician to write a report saying switching it off was against the manufacturer's instructions - it also neglected to say in any way that the boiler couldn't be repaired. After a few rounds of e-mails back and forth with us asking for our money back and him spouting all sorts of legalese (he was a lawyer) about negligence, causation etc, we raised a dispute through TDS to get it back. The landlord has to provide evidence first and he sent in his electrician's report plus a quote for a new boiler. He did not provide any instructions backing up his pet electrician's claims, nor any other evidence that a full boiler replacement (rather than a repair) was necessary.

We responded by providing the manufacturer's instructions from the internet, citing the parts that referred to switching it off. In fact these instructions said it wasn't advisable to leave it off for months at a time, but nothing that 36 hours would be a problem. We also confirmed that we had never been given an instruction not to switch it off, and happily one of our photos of the boiler cupboard showed the relevant switch not in any way labelled as not to be touched. Our check-in inventory even said that for appliance instructions we were to obtain these ourselves from the internet, so we sent these too as further proof that we had done as we were told. There was also a case in the TDS archive of published cases saying that the landlord is expected to have better knowledge of the appliances than the tenant and it is his responsibility to provide specific instructions where necessary, so we quoted this.

The TDS ruled in our favour in full on the basis that we acted in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions and had not been given any other instructions over and above this by the landlord. They referred to the fact that his electrician's report said it was contrary to the instructions but that no evidence of such instructions was attached (it didn't outright say this was a lie but...), whereas we had provided a set that said switching it off was OK. We were not expected to do anything else. We received our entire deposit back and the landlord's (assumed) desire for a shiny new boiler on our dime was thwarted. I still harbour some resentment that he even tried.

Best of luck!

Thank you. This is so helpful. Especially the piece around the case on the website. I will look for that. We are in almost the same position as you in that we did not receive guidance on the boiler. We found the instruction manual online and there is no instruction regarding not switching off at the mains. This has been really helpful. Thank you to everyone and I will keep you updated (in the event it's useful for anyone in the future)

EachPenny

n217970 wrote: »

This claim is utter rubish, you can't break a pump by turning the electricity off unless it was very badly corrorded inside and about to fail anyway. Pretty much the only thing electricity (or sudden lack of) could damage on a boiler would be the mainboard.

Not true. If you read the OP the claim is the pump has seized because the boiler was switched off after the OP moved out. CH pumps can seize quite quickly if the circulating water is not clean and the pump is of a type with tight clearances.

The claim is quite plausible, the issues in question are 1) Liability to pay, and 2) Cost.

teddysmum wrote: »

I wonder whether this boiler is 'not working' because this was not done, when the power was back on.

The LL and/or engineer could possibly be making it up, but if they know enough to claim the pump is seized then it is likely they will have tried other things to get the boiler working.

ComicGeek

EachPenny wrote: »

Not true. If you read the OP the claim is the pump has seized because the boiler was switched off after the OP moved out. CH pumps can seize quite quickly if the circulating water is not clean and the pump is of a type with tight clearances.

Absolute rubbish, the claim is nonsense - the pump has not seized because the boiler was switched off. The pump may well have seized due to crap in the system or old age etc (if the LL is to be believed that it has actually seized), but the act of switching the boiler off can't have caused this.

It is the case that some equipment such as motors can have higher starting currents, and therefore are more likely to break when started, but this can happen anytime the pump starts not just after the power is switched on at the wall.

The boiler would need to be isolated using the same switch for maintenance purposes, so there shouldn't be any reason why a well maintained boiler would have any problem being turned off for a couple of months.

EachPenny

ComicGeek wrote: »

Absolute rubbish, the claim is nonsense - the pump has not seized because the boiler was switched off. The pump may well have seized due to crap in the system or old age etc (if the LL is to be believed that it has actually seized), but the act of switching the boiler off can't have caused this.

I'm not sure this is the precise model the OP has, but it seems close -
https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/professional/support/documents/greenstar-cdi-classic-combi-operating-instructions

Page 17 -

PUMP ANTI-SEIZURE
If there has been no heating demand for 24 hours the boiler will run the system pump for a few seconds to reduce the possibility of pump seizure during long periods of inactivity. This is usually more frequent during the summer months.

If you isolate the power to the boiler then the anti-seizure system cannot operate. Leave the boiler isolated long enough then the pump will seize. If it would take months to happen WB would have designed the system to only do an anti-seize run once a week or so. They've designed it to run every 24 hours. You can conclude that a few days, maybe a week of not running the anti-seize protection due to power isolation could be enough for the pump to seize.

It's not rubbish or nonsense - it is a fact. The claim is plausible.

If the OP's model is the same or similar to the one above, then the claim is also supported by information in the manufacturer's instructions.

Hopetobedebtfree

update - wondered if anyone had any thoughts? We got a copy of the invoice today which contained the following overview of the cause and work needed to repair

Boiler issue: Boiler has been turned off previously allowing any debris to settle and set. And on turning back on has blown/shorted overheat ssors and ignition sensor. Following works have to be carried out in order to get the boiler working again:

Isolate water and gas drain down boiler. Remove boiler from property and bring to merchants for full strip down clear out and flushout as pump, plate heat exchanger and primary heat exchanger are faulty due to sludge. 
Parts replaced: Ch Pump, Aav, Plate heat exchanger, Overheat sensor, ignition sensor, Divertor Valve service and complete strip down of all internal water carrying pipework and primary heat exchanger.
Reassemble boiler and powerflush and inhibitor.
This has had to be done OFF SITE because of the magnitude of