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Win at County Court Maidstone (AM Parking / Gladstones / Elms Legal)
MA61
Posts: 111 Forumite
I thought the following might be helpful / interesting to others. It is a bit TL;DR, sorry, but if you're short of time, I have put things I thought were important in bold to help a bit ;-)
Yesterday I went to Court regarding a private parking charge from 2014, which was the culmination of a process of around 10 months. I'd suddenly been pursued for this by Parking Control Services (PCS) in Summer last year; having changed address around the time of the incident, they had requested up to date details from the DVLA.
I had been following advice and information on this site during that time and had just about met all the deadlines for responses, but had prepared a bit haphazardly for the big day (more on that later).
I'd a late night doing some last minute reading, like a schoolboy cramming for his GCSEs, and got up at 6am to ensure I had everything ready in my mind and all the papers I needed. My main aim was to ensure that for every point I had to make, I had relevant case law, Procedure Rules/Practice Directions, and correspondence etc to refer to and it would be easy to find among the mass of paper (and the nervousness I was feeling).
Having done so, I had a wash and put on my best chalk stripe suit, with a crisp white shirt and cufflinks, tie and shined shoes. I'm a firm believer on the power of how you dress, particularly in a situation like this - experience has taught me that people do take you more seriously.
I aimed to be at the court 30 mins before my scheduled time of 10am (as suggested by a forumite) and knew there was loads of car parking near the Maidstone Courts, so had nothing to worry about there.
There was a queue to get through security, which was very thorough - unsurprising given the 'UK threat level'. I asked for directions and was sent to a large waiting room with a reception desk in one corner. I was asked what case I was there for and told the cheery woman - she called out to one of the suited men sat in the waiting room, "I've got another one of yours here". The fact that the two people knew each other put me on edge, as I was in unfamiliar territory.
I nervously proferred my 'Preliminary Matters' document I had prepared at her, saying, "I brought some additional information". She took it and said "You'll have to give the other side a copy for this to be considered love" . For some reason I hadn't thought of that! I told the woman that I had two copies and gave her the other one, meaning I would be without a copy. (I really needed three copies)
The man came over and shook hands and introduced himself I asked him what company he represented (Elms Legal), and wrote that down, along with his name. I had been a bit curt with him, and walked to the opposite side of the room to sit. A mixture of nervousness and steeling myself for the hearing had made me (perhaps unfairly) think of him as an adversary.
As I sat in the stuffy waiting room, I noticed the people around me. The legal people were pretty obvious, and I had gathered there were two other defendants who would be with the guy from Elms Legal. In both cases, I thought to myself - 'I would have worn a suit and tie mate'. Don't get me wrong - I'd just as happily be wearing shorts and an Iron Maiden shirt myself. The guy I'd be facing read my Preliminary Matters and chatted to another be-suited fellow nearby. I tried texting the guy's name to BMPA's 'check the rep' service and then googled him. I ended up on the Law Society website but couldn't find him
In my mind, it was like I would be defending a castle, focussing my energies on each line of battlements until it was necessary to retreat to the next one and finally, to the keep. My arguments were organised accordingly. First I would deal with the two arguments in Preliminary Matters (Non-appearence of claimant, Right of Audience), then I would move to the claimant's failure to file the witness statement in time and how this had hampered my ability to defend the claim - tied to this was the fact that everything up to this point I'd been sent had been vague. From that I would expand to other non-compliance matters (e.g. LBC/PoC) and finally, I had a few weak points around proving chain of contracts from landowner and visibility of signage (I had not prepared this properly at all and was a bit nervous about this deficiency).
I was shown to a waiting room just outside the room where the case would be heard and waited while one of the other guys I had seen had his case heard. I was nervous, so closed my eyes and practiced some deep breathing. After about ten minutes the rep came out with the defendant (who I wanted to ask the outcome, but was in the zone ready for my case, and by the time I had thought about it he was on his way along the corridor and the rep walked me to the hearing.
The judge asked me to sit down, which I did, and began to organise my papers. No sooner had I sat down, than he said "We have a problem here, my directions were that the witness statements be submitted at least 14 days before the hearing. The claimant's statement was not received until the 24th. Therefore I cannot consider it and have no choice but to dismiss the claim."
I asked, "Forgive me Sir, as I am a layman can you just confirm that this is it? What happens, next, do I get something in writing?". "Yes the court will write to you. For the avoidance of any doubt (he read aloud as he wrote), 'Upon claimant having failed to file and share witness statement as ordered, i.e. not less than 14 days before the hearing, it is ordered that the claim be dismissed'.
My memory of what happened next is a bit vague, I think the poor guy on the other side said something like "I hope my morning gets better", and for the first time I did feel a bit sorry for him (not that sorry though). The judge at some point referred to my Premininary Matters document and said "Thank you for this, I have read it". Something the judge said allowed me to press my claim for costs - I can't quite remember, but it was something like him saying "will you go to work now?" I said, "well actually I took the day off work to come here". He asked, "Oh, where do you work?" "London", I answered, "In fact, if it isn't too churlish, I was going to ask about whether my costs could be covered...". He asked me something about train travel, but I explained I had driven to the court and parked nearby. He then asked me what I did and what a day's pay was. I answered, and he said "Well I can't award you that much, I award you £95, which is the most permitted by the regulations. It will be required to be paid by 27 June"
I thanked the judge, and said it was a pleasure to meet him, and explained that I had given myself a crash course in civil law. The rep asked "Was it a pleasure to meet me?". I replied "Given the outcome of the case I suppose I can say that. Have a good day gentlemen."
I then got in my car and drove to the nearest Wetherspoons where I ordered a large breakfast and a pint of ale.:beer:
I have to get on with some work now but will set out what I thought were the main learning points from my perspective in a post below, later.
Yesterday I went to Court regarding a private parking charge from 2014, which was the culmination of a process of around 10 months. I'd suddenly been pursued for this by Parking Control Services (PCS) in Summer last year; having changed address around the time of the incident, they had requested up to date details from the DVLA.
I had been following advice and information on this site during that time and had just about met all the deadlines for responses, but had prepared a bit haphazardly for the big day (more on that later).
I'd a late night doing some last minute reading, like a schoolboy cramming for his GCSEs, and got up at 6am to ensure I had everything ready in my mind and all the papers I needed. My main aim was to ensure that for every point I had to make, I had relevant case law, Procedure Rules/Practice Directions, and correspondence etc to refer to and it would be easy to find among the mass of paper (and the nervousness I was feeling).
Having done so, I had a wash and put on my best chalk stripe suit, with a crisp white shirt and cufflinks, tie and shined shoes. I'm a firm believer on the power of how you dress, particularly in a situation like this - experience has taught me that people do take you more seriously.
I aimed to be at the court 30 mins before my scheduled time of 10am (as suggested by a forumite) and knew there was loads of car parking near the Maidstone Courts, so had nothing to worry about there.
There was a queue to get through security, which was very thorough - unsurprising given the 'UK threat level'. I asked for directions and was sent to a large waiting room with a reception desk in one corner. I was asked what case I was there for and told the cheery woman - she called out to one of the suited men sat in the waiting room, "I've got another one of yours here". The fact that the two people knew each other put me on edge, as I was in unfamiliar territory.
I nervously proferred my 'Preliminary Matters' document I had prepared at her, saying, "I brought some additional information". She took it and said "You'll have to give the other side a copy for this to be considered love" . For some reason I hadn't thought of that! I told the woman that I had two copies and gave her the other one, meaning I would be without a copy. (I really needed three copies)
The man came over and shook hands and introduced himself I asked him what company he represented (Elms Legal), and wrote that down, along with his name. I had been a bit curt with him, and walked to the opposite side of the room to sit. A mixture of nervousness and steeling myself for the hearing had made me (perhaps unfairly) think of him as an adversary.
As I sat in the stuffy waiting room, I noticed the people around me. The legal people were pretty obvious, and I had gathered there were two other defendants who would be with the guy from Elms Legal. In both cases, I thought to myself - 'I would have worn a suit and tie mate'. Don't get me wrong - I'd just as happily be wearing shorts and an Iron Maiden shirt myself. The guy I'd be facing read my Preliminary Matters and chatted to another be-suited fellow nearby. I tried texting the guy's name to BMPA's 'check the rep' service and then googled him. I ended up on the Law Society website but couldn't find him
In my mind, it was like I would be defending a castle, focussing my energies on each line of battlements until it was necessary to retreat to the next one and finally, to the keep. My arguments were organised accordingly. First I would deal with the two arguments in Preliminary Matters (Non-appearence of claimant, Right of Audience), then I would move to the claimant's failure to file the witness statement in time and how this had hampered my ability to defend the claim - tied to this was the fact that everything up to this point I'd been sent had been vague. From that I would expand to other non-compliance matters (e.g. LBC/PoC) and finally, I had a few weak points around proving chain of contracts from landowner and visibility of signage (I had not prepared this properly at all and was a bit nervous about this deficiency).
I was shown to a waiting room just outside the room where the case would be heard and waited while one of the other guys I had seen had his case heard. I was nervous, so closed my eyes and practiced some deep breathing. After about ten minutes the rep came out with the defendant (who I wanted to ask the outcome, but was in the zone ready for my case, and by the time I had thought about it he was on his way along the corridor and the rep walked me to the hearing.
The judge asked me to sit down, which I did, and began to organise my papers. No sooner had I sat down, than he said "We have a problem here, my directions were that the witness statements be submitted at least 14 days before the hearing. The claimant's statement was not received until the 24th. Therefore I cannot consider it and have no choice but to dismiss the claim."
I asked, "Forgive me Sir, as I am a layman can you just confirm that this is it? What happens, next, do I get something in writing?". "Yes the court will write to you. For the avoidance of any doubt (he read aloud as he wrote), 'Upon claimant having failed to file and share witness statement as ordered, i.e. not less than 14 days before the hearing, it is ordered that the claim be dismissed'.
My memory of what happened next is a bit vague, I think the poor guy on the other side said something like "I hope my morning gets better", and for the first time I did feel a bit sorry for him (not that sorry though). The judge at some point referred to my Premininary Matters document and said "Thank you for this, I have read it". Something the judge said allowed me to press my claim for costs - I can't quite remember, but it was something like him saying "will you go to work now?" I said, "well actually I took the day off work to come here". He asked, "Oh, where do you work?" "London", I answered, "In fact, if it isn't too churlish, I was going to ask about whether my costs could be covered...". He asked me something about train travel, but I explained I had driven to the court and parked nearby. He then asked me what I did and what a day's pay was. I answered, and he said "Well I can't award you that much, I award you £95, which is the most permitted by the regulations. It will be required to be paid by 27 June"
I thanked the judge, and said it was a pleasure to meet him, and explained that I had given myself a crash course in civil law. The rep asked "Was it a pleasure to meet me?". I replied "Given the outcome of the case I suppose I can say that. Have a good day gentlemen."
I then got in my car and drove to the nearest Wetherspoons where I ordered a large breakfast and a pint of ale.:beer:
I have to get on with some work now but will set out what I thought were the main learning points from my perspective in a post below, later.
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Comments
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Well done, and thanks for the update.
With respect though, this should have been posted on one of your several other threads that you've already created about this case, most relevantly this one. This is so people reading this can see the context in which it relates.0 -
Well done again and great write up - I will link it in your other thread, not to worry.
Do you have the case number, name of judge and the name of the Elms gentleman?0 -
Well done, and thanks for the update.
With respect though, this should have been posted on one of your several other threads that you've already created about this case, most relevantly this one. This is so people reading this can see the context in which it relates.
It was a bit disappointing to take an hour out of my morning to write it all in detail for others to be smacked down in the first comment, but maybe I'm just being oversensitive. There was a rationale behind it, however.
One of the things I thought when reading the forums, is that it has been time consuming to go through several pages for each case and it would be easier to have a more detailed post that brings together as much detail in one place and with a title that people can relate to their own cases.0 -
Hi @MA61 - please don't take DoaM's comment in the wrong way. I don't think it was meant as a criticism at all.
Its just that the regular users like to keep things organised so its easy to retrieve valuable information for a later date when they need to re-direct a new user. However, I have linked this thread to the end of your previous thread so now it can be retrieved and found either way - no worries!
I also do agree with you somewhat on your post above, there is a case to say that all court reports could be written under a new thread prefixed with "Winning Court Report <rest of title>" as this would make it easy to search for them ... then if that thread is linked in the original thread then all good as the context can be maintained. Or if we were allowed another sticky everyone could add to the "Winning Court Report" sticky (but we are alas not allowed any more stickies!). Anyway, just my opinions though ...
As a recent (very successful) user your feedback on how to make, what is an immense resource, easier to use is indeed valued. Please do continue to post here and indeed help others in the future with your new found experience.0 -
Well done again and great write up - I will link it in your other thread, not to worry.
Do you have the case number, name of judge and the name of the Elms gentleman?
Thanks for doing that.
Case number: D4GF8736
Name of judge: Unknown - I didn't ask / wasn't told I'm afraid
Elms rep: Marcus Cleave (although I am unsure of the spellling)0 -
An excellent result, and thanks for the write up.
it seems the courts is getting stricter with Gladstones continual flouting of the procedures, although ironically in another of the 4 out of 4 cases won yesterday the judge did allow their late witness statementHi, we’ve approved your signature. It's awesome. Please email the forum team if you want more praise - MSE ForumTeam0 -
What an informative write up. Very much enjoyed reading it.
While I'm sure there was 100% relief at this being dismissed at the outset, I bet there's some tinged disappointment that you didn't have the opportunity to argue your full case, given the work you'd put in.
Well done, once again.Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .
I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.
Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street0 -
Thanks, perfect, the PP or Bargepole can find out the name of the DJ from the case number.Case number: D4GF8736
Name of judge: Unknown - I didn't ask / wasn't told I'm afraid
Elms rep: Marcus Cleave (although I am unsure of the spellling)
Let us know you got your cheque!! If it doesn't arrive I can assure you there will be a (not so orderly) queue of regulars scrambling and eager to help you enforce that you do get that cheque ... 0 -
If the judge said they were 'his directions' then his name will be on the directions sheet listing the hearing date.Dedicated to driving up standards in parking0
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That's a fantastic and detailed court report, many thanks for posting it! I will link it in the NEWBIES thread for others to read.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0
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