private road - public liability

ellie27

moneyistooshorttomention wrote: »

The language here is confusing.

You say "private road".

I presume you actually mean a road that is perfectly standard, except that it's never been adopted - ie an "unadopted road"?

I live on a road which has 3 houses on it, it is not a through road.
On my title deeds the bit of road in front of my house is my land.
There is a sign on entering the road that says 'private road, no turning'
These houses have been here for almost 100 years and thats the way it has always been.

Guest101

ellie27 wrote: »

I live on a road which has 3 houses on it, it is not a through road.
On my title deeds the bit of road in front of my house is my land.
There is a sign on entering the road that says 'private road, no turning'
These houses have been here for almost 100 years and thats the way it has always been.

Yet none of that prevents the public having unrestricted access. Hence it's a public space, which means you as a landowner would be liable.

MrsNubs

There seems to be a lot of confusion between unadopted and private roads. I live on a private road. As in, I am the land owner of the whole road, along with 4 other residents. We don't each own the section of the road in front of our house, we all own the road as a whole and are equally liable for the upkeep, including a section further up in front of houses which are not landowners. I think this is a very important distinction. G_M has used the phrase private, not unadopted, and is usually a very accurate poster, so I would presume this is in fact a private road. I'm not a lawyer and don't know the answer to the question, but if there is a liability here then it lies with the landowner, not the "frontager" (is that even a real word?).

Unless of course G_M does mean unadopted.

ellie27

Guest101 wrote: »

Yet none of that prevents the public having unrestricted access. Hence it's a public space, which means you as a landowner would be liable.

There is a chain and posts at each end of the road. If I have the chain across all the time then surely it then is not a public space and I woudnt be liable?

Guest101

ellie27 wrote: »

There is a chain and posts at each end of the road. If I have the chain across all the time then surely it then is not a public space and I woudnt be liable?

Does that stop cars; bikes; pedestrians?


Yes that helps (though its the first time you mentioned it)

bouicca21

The devil is clearly going to be in the detail. I suspect that depending on age and original developer there are going to be major variations in arrangements - not a simple question of defining private v unadopted but more likely a continuum between the two.

moneyistooshorttomention

bouicca21 wrote: »

Do the property owners have any kind of covenant on their deeds giving them formal responsibility for the road? Is there a residents group that has that responsibility?

.

I find that comment confusing.

House-owners in an unadopted road can have a covenant in their deeds saying they are due to pay a share of road maintenance costs - but that doesnt make them a part-owner of the road. Only the owner has "formal responsibility for the road". Unless there is no owner - in which case we are then onto the second reserve option - that concept of frontagers responsibility.

Being due to pay a share of road maintenance costs doesnt of itself mean there is any responsibility for the state of the road.

moneyistooshorttomention

MrsNubs wrote: »

There seems to be a lot of confusion between unadopted and private roads. I live on a private road. As in, I am the land owner of the whole road, along with 4 other residents. We don't each own the section of the road in front of our house, we all own the road as a whole and are equally liable for the upkeep, including a section further up in front of houses which are not landowners. I think this is a very important distinction. G_M has used the phrase private, not unadopted, and is usually a very accurate poster, so I would presume this is in fact a private road. I'm not a lawyer and don't know the answer to the question, but if there is a liability here then it lies with the landowner, not the "frontager" (is that even a real word?).

Unless of course G_M does mean unadopted.

Yep - frontager is a "real" word. Just put it into Google and up it comes...

Re people having joint ownership of the road - personally I'd want to check what the deeds/Register entry said about ownership. I would think either everyone's deeds say nothing - in which case there is no owner. Or one person's deeds say they are the owner (presumably yourself - as you say you are the landowner of the whole road)? Or everyone's deeds say they are the owner of 20% of the road? I know I soon checked that the owner of my road has that fact down in their deeds (it's on their title plan that they own it) - but there is no mention of it in my deeds. I kept the copy I have of their title plan just in case there ever is a claim.

I would interpret your comment as you are the owner of the road as meaning = you're It if there is a claim and the other houses don't have any involvement at all with the claim.

G_M

Wow! Lots of response and lots of views. To fill a few gaps:

* the road is privately owned by a management company owned by the residents. It has its own Land Registry Title held in the Company's name. It is not simply'unadopted'.

* the road was built around 100 years back, along with (most of) the properties. It's cobbled.

* there is no bridle path publicc footpath etc. There is no pavement. Front doors open directly onto the road. It is a nrrow cul de sac leading nowhere.

* There is a fund held by the Manco (from annual payments which most residents pay - another story) to cover maintenance, as well as upkeep of some common gardens road sweeping etc

* there have over the years been regular discussions about a gate or other access system - primarily to deter parking by non-residents (this is London), but agreement can never be reached (dustmen, guests, grocer deliveries blah blah)

* Maintenance has been on hold due to long dispute with the water board over liability for the drains beneath (possible collapse which may be the cause of deterioration in road surface. Water board finally agreed to adopt the drains this year

In fact, there's an article on the little-known website MoneySavingExpert.com explaining all about such claims:

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/travel/pothole-claims

The link seems basically related to claims against the LA, other than the single line:

Private roads: Claiming for pothole damage on a private road generally works in a similar way, but it's a slightly different process.

I somehow doubt that tea and cake will substitute for proper legal advice.

Dear Mr Taxi-driver,
Thanks for your £1000 claim. Would you like to pop round for tea and cake next Tuesday at 4?
:rotfl:

ps - I know no one ever believes it when posters say this, but - asking on behalf of a friend (I don't live there)!

moneyistooshorttomention

From what you say G_M = you're all "it" then in your case.

If you're all in the management company and the management company has deeds proving it (as an entity) owns the road - then I'd interpret that as meaning the management company is due to pay out this claim from its resources.

Which then brings you onto the question of whether all the residents belong automatically to the management company or have to opt in deliberately to being a member.:cool:

(Surprised you had that problem with the Water Board - as, when I bought my house in unadopted road a few years back - I had already found out that things had been changed legally a year or two before that to make it the case that Water Boards now own all the pipes in the country - unless they are on an individual householders private personal land). That was a relief to me to know I couldnt be made to pay up for any pipe repairs outside my own garden.