What do I do here?

Sunstarx55

First I hope this is the right section.

Okay, so last year in August I bought a circuit board from this site. I paid and received my goods, no problems.

February 18, they sent me an email (See below) saying that the card processor they used hadn't paid them. They said they would refund me then charge me again, they charged me the second time, but no refund. I asked them about it and they said to charge-back the original payment via my bank, telling me I have up to a year to do this.

So I contacted Santander who told me that there is a 120 day limit. So they advised me to charge-back the second payment, after a month they decided that they could not in fact do this, saying that because it was from 2 different companies and 2 different amounts (Something to do with currency conversion I think).

So here's what I think happened. I paid and the dodgy card processor failed to pay the company, they then charged me again and expected me to get my bank to charge-back the card processor and everyone ends up with the amount they should have (Not the original CP though)

But that would mean that this "refund" never existed, and because it was well outside the 120 day limit on the 18th I can't do anything.

What can I do here? My bank told me it's not fraud because I dealt with the company first, but why do they have the power to take money out of my account for no reason??

I'll add my email correspondence below, hopefully someone can give me some advice.

Thank you!

Sunstarx55

I don't know how to make spoiler tags that expand, sorry for the wall of text!

Mod Central
Hi you may notice a charge on your card from (Gocybershopping 2005 LTD) Don’t be alarmed.
The original charge when you placed the order in August has been refunded in full.
The refund will take 3-5 business days. We have a new Credit Card processor.
The old Processor which we billed you with originally hasn’t paid us for your order.
We apologize for the inconvenience.
If you have any questions or concerns
Please email us

Thank You!


Alex Steele
Hello, could you please clarify what you mean? Will you be refunding then charging me again?

Thanks


Mod Central
Correct you will see a charge for the order and a refund.
The refund will be the original charge.


Alex Steele
Hello, could you confirm that you've refunded me the first charge please? I'm seeing the second charge (On the 20th of February) but no refund.

Thanks


Mod Central
Hi sure the refund information is below. If you don’t receive it
Please chargeback the original charge, you have up to a year.
The bank can even call us and confirm if they like
519-884-5545

Refund (Unique Transaction ID # 6RW361600V6475024)
See related 36X76113HP9295151

Original Transaction
Date Type Status Details Gross Fee Net
Aug 26, 2016 Payment From alex steele Refunded
You have refunded this payment in full.
You have refunded this payment in full.
Details $75.80 USD -


Alex Steele
Hello, I'm having some trouble charging back as you suggested (As the refund did not come through).

My bank needs some more information. Specifically a letter or email from you stating the card number the refund was for, and the the card number for the original purchase.

If you could help me out with this it would be great, thank you.


Mod Central
Hi ok the original purchase and the refund were to the same card.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xx/xx
xxx
Aug 26 was the charge $75.80 u.s
the refund was issued
Feb 17

Refund (Unique Transaction ID # 6RW361600V6475024)
See related 36X76113HP9295151

Original Transaction
Date Type Status Details Gross Fee Net
Aug 26, 2016 Payment From alex steele RefundedYou have refunded this payment in full.
You have refunded this payment in full.
Details $75.80 USD


Alex Steele
Hello, I am having an issue with the refund.

My bank is unable to charge-back the original amount, as the original transaction was well outside the 120 day limit on Feb 18.

I have discussed this at length with them and they assure me that the responsibility for the refund lies with you.

I am not trying to inconvenience anyone, if it were a much smaller amount I would simply let it go. But $75.80 is too much to simply forget about.

Is there anything you can do from your end? I appreciate your help. Thank you,


Mod Central
You have up to a year to do a chargeback
As we have done so ourselves. You may need to speak to the manager.
We want you to do a chargeback and give you premission to do so.
We issued the refund but maybe the bank rejected it were not sure.
Your card company can call us if they want.
This happened to a few other customers as well and
the bank was able to chargeback the funds and the customer received there money back.
We apologize your caught in the middle of this.
519-884-5545


Alex Steele
In the UK it's 120 days, outside of that the bank cannot do anything.

The bank also shows that there has been no refund issued or rejected from "Gocybershopping 2005 LTD".


Mod Central
Not true, we had other customers say the same thing
there bank called us and that rule was over written.
We did issue the refund we even have the transaction id verification


Refund (Unique Transaction ID # 6RW361600V6475024)
See related 36X76113HP9295151

Original Transaction
Date Type Status Details Gross Fee Net
Aug 26, 2016 Payment From alex steele RefundedYou have refunded this payment in full.
You have refunded this payment in full.
Details $75.80 USD


Alex Steele
I've been talking to them for over a month, they cannot do anything for the original charge.

However I would be able to get my money back on the second charge, then you can sort out the money you're missing with the old processor.


Mod Central
But they can Your not the only one from the u.k that this happened to.
They only tell you its 120 days. The bank has a year. You have to speak to the correct
manager.


Alex Steele
Can you explain to me why you did not sort this issue with the old processor?

It seems odd you would charge the customer a second time.


Mod Central
Because of the products we sell, we sell modchips like the cr4 you purchased
They are considered grey area products. We can't get a regular processor
We pay extreme high rates and have to go overseas out of Belize.
The owner of the account didn't pay us for 2x weeks of transactions
Yours happened to be amongst those. We had to issue a refund
and re-charge with the new processor. This is a common problem
amongst modchip sellers.


Alex Steele
You realise that makes no sense?

I paid, you did not receive the money. Therefore you refunding me means that you're taking the money out of your own pocket, then charging me again. In the end that would mean you have gained nothing.


Mod Central
No we refunded the original charge. Then we billed using new processor to receive the funds
we have only received one payment. The bank should be refunding the original charge.
They have the power to do it.


Alex Steele
Right, lets make this simple. Person A starts with $75, person B and person C starts with $0.

1. Person A pays person B, person B is supposed to give the money to person C.
2. Person C then sends goods to person A.
3. Person B keeps the money for themselves.
4. Person C doesn't like not receiving money.
5. So person C then refund then charge person A.

At the end of all this Person A should have $0, person B should have $75, and person C should have $0.

But obviously person C wants their money for the goods, so they ask person A to make their bank take the money from person B.


Alex Steele
Is that correct?

wealdroam

Generally speaking a chargeback can only be made up to 120 days.

But there is an exception.

If you were to read MSE's Chargeback article you will see this:

Some claims CAN be made after 120 days – for example if you paid for something that was to be provided at a point in the future – a point often unspecified – but that didn't end up being supplied.

This might typically be a payment for extra renovation work in the future – with a card payment made during an existing home improvement project – where the building company takes the card payment but later folds before the extra work can be done.

However, even with these claims, there's a time limit of a maximum 540 days from the date of the transaction. It's worth noting most bank staff don't really know about this procedure, so you may need to explain it to them.

Take particular note of the last sentence there "It's worth noting most bank staff don't really know about this procedure, so you may need to explain it to them".

Edited to add:
Another option might be to get Santander to chargeback the second payment - the reason being that this second payment was taken without your authorisation.
That then leaves the seller to negotiate with their first card processer to get the funds without further involvement from you.

Sunstarx55

That's what I just went through. They were trying to charge-back the second transaction but for some reason they couldn't. Honestly I think they were confused, and I couldn't explain it to them because you can't talk to the people who handle the disputes in person.

And apparently the first one I talked to shouldn't have advised me to do that in the first place, again it was something to do with the charges and the companies. here are the two payments:

Original charge- 29/08/2016 CARD PAYMENT TO 'HELP YAY MODCENTRAL' ,75.80 USD, RATE
0.75/GBP ON 26-08-2016 NON-STERLING TR £59.16

Second charge- 20/02/2017 CARD PAYMENT TO SQ '*GOCYBERSHOPPING 2005' ,99.30 CAD,
RATE 0.61/GBP ON 17-02-2017 NON-STERLI £62.95

wealdroam

Who did you buy from?
'HELP YAY MODCENTRAL' or '*GOCYBERSHOPPING 2005'?

I think I would be insisting that Santander undo the recent transaction simply because you didn't authorise it.

The fact that Santander can't manage to do that is not really your problem.
Keep on insisting they undo the recent transaction and if they still refuse, go through Santander's complaints procedure.

If there is still no resolution, take your case to the Financial Ombudsman Service.

dj1471

It sounds like the first payment processor cut-off your supplier due to their illegal activity, the result being that they never received the first payment you made (all funds in-transit were likely frozen or forfeited). This is not your problem, the issue is between the merchant and their payment processor, but they likely won't deal with the merchant any more. As you have discovered, you're too late for chargeback - the limit is 120 days (US-domestic transactions have different rules).

Not sure how they can claim both to have never received the payment and to have refunded it though.

In any case the merchant needs to refund you. If you genuinely did not authorise the second transaction then request a chargeback for it on that basis. But how could they have charged your card unless you gave them the card details? Given you originally paid a third-party payment processor the merchant wouldn't have had your card details.

wealdroam wrote: »

But there is an exception.
...

But that doesn't apply here, does it? This was a straightforward purchase.

Sunstarx55

@Wealdroam I bought from 'HELP YAY MODCENTRAL' the second charge cam from'*GOCYBERSHOPPING 2005'.

@dj1471

Not sure how they can claim both to have never received the payment and to have refunded it though.

That's exactly my point, on that basis alone I thought Santander would charge-back the second payment.

But how could they have charged your card unless you gave them the card details? Given you originally paid a third-party payment processor the merchant wouldn't have had your card details.

Thank you pointing that out, by that logic would it make it fraud? Because as far as I'm concerned I've had no dealings with GOCYBERSHOPPING.

wealdroam

dj1471 wrote: »

But that doesn't apply here, does it? This was a straightforward purchase.

Yes, you are right.

But it does show that the 120 day limit is not set in stone, and one can't expect a MSE guide to cover every possible nuance of the various chargeback schemes.

SnowTiger

Sunstarx55 wrote: »

I don't know how to make spoiler tags that expand, sorry for the wall of text!

Mod Central
Hi you may notice a charge on your card from (Gocybershopping 2005 LTD) Don’t be alarmed.
The original charge when you placed the order in August has been refunded in full.
The refund will take 3-5 business days. We have a new Credit Card processor.
The old Processor which we billed you with originally hasn’t paid us for your order.
We apologize for the inconvenience.
If you have any questions or concerns
Please email us

Thank You!

I haven't read through it all.

The second charge appears to have been unauthorised and should be reported as such.

You bought a product and paid for it. End of story. You authorised one payment.

Problems the seller has with their card processor isn't your concern.

The seller appears to have retained the three digital number from the back of your card (CCV), which I don't think they should:

Sunstarx55 wrote: »

Mod Central
Hi ok the original purchase and the refund were to the same card.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xx/xx
xxx
Aug 26 was the charge $75.80 u.s
the refund was issued
Feb 17

wealdroam

SnowTiger wrote: »

The second charge appears to have been unauthorised and should be reported as such.

You bought a product and paid for it. End of story. You authorised one payment.

Problems the seller has with their card processor isn't your concern.

The seller appears to have retained the three digital number from the back of your card (CCV), which I don't think they should:

I agree. Very succinctly put.

dj1471

Sunstarx55 wrote: »

Thank you pointing that out, by that logic would it make it fraud? Because as far as I'm concerned I've had no dealings with GOCYBERSHOPPING.

Yes, if you did not explicitly authorise the second transaction then report it to Santander as fraudulent. Don't muddy the waters by giving them the whole history, just say that it wasn't authorised.

They will probably cancel the card, but I'd recommend that anyway. The merchant shouldn't have your card details, the fact that they do suggests they have been handled insecurely.

Naturally the supplier will chase you for the money, but you can prove that you paid them so they won't get very far.